Flanking: question about a special case

[power2084]

Hi !

I'm a rogue in a D&D game, and last night we came upon a special case.
I was in front of an enemy, who had already acted in that round.
So I wasn't able to do a sneak attack on him since he wasn't
flatfooted.

Next thing you know, the other rogue in the group (who was invisible)
does a double move and ends up behind our enemy. The enemy had effecively
one rogue in front of him, and one behind him.

Right after that, it was my turn to play, and I decided to attack the enemy.
But the enemy wasn't aware of the presence of the other rogue behind
him. SO: Should I have been allowed a flanking bonus of +2 (and a sneak
attack) or not ?

Does the rules (or clarifications of the rules) cover that anywhere ?

Thanks for your replies !

 

[Rino]

A rogue can strike for sneak attack damage whenever her foe is flat-footed or whenever she’s attacking with a melee weapon from the foe’s rear area. She doesn’t need anyone directly opposite her to get the extra damage. The standard rules for creatures’ immunity to sneak attack still apply. For example, a shambling mound has a rear area, but it’s immune to sneak attack damage because it’s a plant. Conversely, a phasm doesn’t have a front or rear, but you can still deal extra sneak attack damage if you catch it flat-footed.

Diagram: Sneak Attacks Rogue A doesn’t get to make sneak attacks against the gnoll, despite the presence of the fighter on the other side of the foe. But both the fighter and rogue A get a +2 bonus on their attacks because they’re standing in the gnoll’s flank area.

Rogue B may make sneak attacks against the gnoll as long as she’s attacking from one of the gnoll’s rear squares. If the gnoll turns to face Rogue B, she’ll have to move if she wants to make sneak attacks.

 

[irdeggman]

This is one of those things that has been discussed a lot on these boards.


Rules of the Game had something to address this.

Defender Flanked

Creatures become susceptible to sneak attacks when flanked because they must divide their attention between two or more opponents whose relative positions make it difficult to block or dodge their attacks. The situation is something like dealing with an unseen foe, but isn't quite as severe.

To flank an opponent, two allies must be on opposite sides of that opponent, and they both must threaten the opponent (Chapter 8 in the Player's Handbook has some handy diagrams that explain flanking). You threaten an opponent when you can make an armed melee attack against that opponent. You're "armed" when you use a manufactured weapon, natural weapon, the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, or the monk's unarmed strike ability. You don't actually have to have a weapon that can hurt an opponent to threaten that opponent. If you and your buddy have no silver weapons but find yourselves on opposites sides of a werewolf, you still flank the werewolf (but see the final section of this article series).

You can flank with any melee weapon, including a reach weapon, but you cannot flank with a ranged weapon.

You get a flanking bonus from any ally your foe can see (and who is in the correct position to flank). If your foe can't see you, you don't provide a flanking bonus to any ally. You literally cannot flank a blind creature; however, a blind creature loses its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against your attacks (so you can sneak attack it), and you get a +2 to attack it to boot. Creatures with the blindsight ability effectively "see" within blindsight range and can be flanked.

The improved uncanny dodge class ability can prevent a creature from being flanked (see the next section).

But technically the rules on flanking don't care one whit.

"When making a melee attack, you get get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent's opposite border or opposite corner.. . . .

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus."

RAW doesn't really talk about "why" only that you get the bonus.

 

[irdeggman]

A rogue can strike for sneak attack damage whenever her foe is flat-footed or whenever she’s attacking with a melee weapon from the foe’s rear area.

There is no "rear area" without using the optional "facing rules" of Unearthed Arcana.

There are only "opposite sides".

 

[starwed]

A rogue can strike for sneak attack damage whenever her foe is flat-footed or whenever she’s attacking with a melee weapon from the foe’s rear area.

This is completely wrong in 3.5, which has no facing. Certainly, if you are using the rules for facing, that's probably how you'd do it. But by default, there is no facing, so no backstab.

 

[power2084]

What are you smoking ???

Where does that diagram come from ???

Unless I've been away from this forum for too long, and there's AGAIN
another update to the rules, here's some text from the
Player's Handbook v. 3.5 (about sneak attacks):

Basically, the rogue's attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied
a dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target has a dexterity bonus or not),
or when the rogue flanks her target.

So, can anyone help or even explain what set of rules the previous poster was referring to ?

 

[Rino]

SRD 3.5 dnd on the net
http://www.d20srd.org/

 

[power2084]

Oops ok, I posted my reply too late.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Sound of Azure]

This is one of those things that has been discussed a lot on these boards.


Rules of the Game had something to address this.





But technically the rules on flanking don't care one whit.

"When making a melee attack, you get get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent's opposite border or opposite corner.. . . .

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus."

RAW doesn't really talk about "why" only that you get the bonus.

Unless the OP's character had see invisibility or some kind of ability like Linked Mind with his comrade, neither his PC, nor the enemy would even know the 2nd rogue was even there until Rogue 2 attacks nad broke the invisibility.

No Flank, IMO.

 

[irdeggman]

Unless the OP's character had see invisibility or some kind of ability like Linked Mind with his comrade, neither his PC, nor the enemy would even know the 2nd rogue was even there until Rogue 2 attacks nad broke the invisibility.

No Flank, IMO.

That's how I would rule also (but that is a house-ruling not necessarily a strict RAW one), but I only pointed out the sources I could find. . .