Flat-Footed

[anest1s]

Let me try this: If they wanted you to be able to simply delay your acting....why not do that with the Ready action? Why would you create a Ready act that imposes a Standard action fee? On the off chance you might interrupt a spell caster?

You just said Ready Action before that Ready Action is different than delay. I thought we got past that point. So you are back to saying that Ready Action and Delay are somehow the same thing?

Doesn't it make more sense that WotC would give you an option to voluntarily swap out our init roll for something lower?

It is there, we can see it. We have the chance to act, but voluntarily we don't. We Delay.

Here's one final thing to consider. If the Delay was executed by the character in game...then why couldn't he declare a trigger and interrupt something as soon as he witnessed it? The obvious answer is because the character isn't delaying. The character hasn't had its init turn come up becase the player took a lower number. If you want the character to delay, then you need to Ready an action...for which WotC imposes a cost.

You cant interrupt with delay. DUH!!

I don't think there's much more to cover on this. You can respond..and I'll read it...but I think I've been repeating myself for like the last 10 posts.

Then point out the answers to my posts...clearly I somehow missed them!
No need to retype, just quote yourself, to make it easier!

 

[Water Bob]

You can't take free actions if you delay unless they specifically state that they can be done anytime (like speaking does), drop an item or quick draw do not say you can do them anytime - so you must do them on your turn in the initiative order (which by delaying has now changed).

Rules Compendium pg 43

"By choosing to delay, you take no action on your regular turn, then act normally on whatever initiaitive count you decide. You voluntarily change your initiative for the rest of the combat. You can specify this new initiative count, or you can just wait until a certain time and act then."

RC defines delay as a "no action" which is why you can perform it. Technically a 5 ft step is also a no action, so I guess you could take a 5 ft step and delay also (doesn't mean I would run it that way only that the rules seem to allow it).

This is actually supported by the Official WOTC D&D FAQ, that says...

Can you take a free action and a standard action as part
of a readied action? For example, suppose I ready an action
to attack the first monster to come into melee range. A
monster comes into range, and I take an attack—can I also
shout, cast a quickened spell, or use some other free action?​

Using a strict reading of the ready rules (on page 160 of the​

PH​

​

​

), the answer is no. While the ready action allows you to
combine a 5-foot step as part of the readied action, it doesn’t
say anything about allowing free actions.

Furthermore, the first sentence of the second paragraph
under the Ready heading (“You can ready a standard action, a
move action, or a free action.”) seems to support this, as it
clearly sets up a free action as one of the three options, rather
than including it as an addition to be included along with either
of the other two options.

Since speaking is generally defined as a free action you can
perform “even when it isn’t your turn” (see the PH 144), you
don’t need to combine a shout with the readied action. You can
simply perform it any time you want, including right before or
after taking a readied action. The same is true of any spell (or
action) that you can cast (or perform) when it isn’t your turn,
such as feather fall, or any spell whose casting time is 1​

immediate action. (The immediate action is defined in several
recent rulebooks, including the XPH and CAr. It is reprinted

here for your reference.) You couldn’t cast a quickened spell,
though, since that can’t be done when it isn’t your turn.
​

Immediate Action​

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very
small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of
effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift
action, an immediate action can be performed at any time—
even if it is not your turn. Using an immediate action on your
turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your
swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate
action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have
used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn
(effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is
equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You​

also cannot use an immediate action if you are currently flatfooted.

For those of you wanting to not be FF at all...here is the solution:

Immediate Action

An immediate action is very similar to a swift action, but can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn.
​

So since everyone has an option to take an Immediate action...no one is ever FF because he "may" have acted. Problem solved Bob. Don't you just love rules in RPG's?

No one is ever flat-footed.

Yeah...I don't think that's correct. Othwise, the flat-footed concept would not be in the game.

 

[irdeggman]

I don't know what S&B is.

Sword and Board - ancient D&D slang for sword and shield fighting style

Don't get me wrong, but I don't think this thread is about rangers and I don't know what THF is either.

Two handed fighting (like using a two handed weapon).

Bout your second post.
Good try, but like you point out for the last pages when your turn is, is what defines when you are flat footed.
The argument is that your regular turn is when you decide to Delay, and not when you decide to play...because you had an option to act then.

Yes I do and the text "before you have had a chance to act" is pretty clear in its meaning.

Now if you say that you can have an immediate action just when you delay...hell you are right. This means that you aren't flat footed any more, even when with your understanding of the rules.

It depends on what the immediate action is, but when you delay you can not interupt anyone else's actions (hence no Attacks of Opportunity) so if the immediate action does not interrupt anyone else's actions then yes you can perform it (some immediate actions by definition do interupt some one else's actions - so they can't be done).

Anyway one last question. Why you consider regular, the delayed initiative order, and not the original one? I mean, regular implies something normal, not a tricky option that is available and you may or may not use...?

I believe that the authors chose the phrase "(specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order)" to separate the surprise round from the regular round. Technically in the surprise round whether you act or not you are "flat-footed" and they wanted to make a distinction between the surprise round (not a regular turn) and the regular combat round.

 

[irdeggman]

The 5-foot step is a fudge in the game. If it's No Action, then why can't I take a 100 No Actions and get through the entire dungeon on the first round?

Because you can only take 1 5 ft step a round and then only if you do no other movement in that round (part of the requirements of the 5 ft step).

If it didn't say that, then your point could be well taken.

 

[anest1s]

It depends on what the immediate action is, but when you delay you can not interupt anyone else's actions (hence no Attacks of Opportunity) so if the immediate action does not interrupt anyone else's actions then yes you can perform it (some immediate actions by definition do interupt some one else's actions - so they can't be done).

Thanks for the answers you weren't the one I was expecting to reply though...

Well I disagree with that. I think that you can't interrupt your opponent means that you can't decide that your turn starts after your opponents move action and before his standard action, like you can with Ready Action. AoO looks highly irrelevant...

 

[irdeggman]

Rules Compendium pg 110 "You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action"

 

[irdeggman]

Thanks for the answers you weren't the one I was expecting to reply though...

Well I disagree with that. I think that you can't interrupt your opponent means that you can't decide that your turn starts after your opponents move action and before his standard action, like you can with Ready Action. AoO looks highly irrelevant...

Possibly.

But in general when WotC says interupt someone's actions they mean that you actions causes their action to be stopped before it happens and yours must be resolved first.

In general delay means you either go before or after some one else, and not while they are going - so I tend to agree with you, but it might be a conditional ruling depending on what is going on.

 

[Arrowhawk]

I believe that the authors chose the phrase "(specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order)" to separate the surprise round from the regular round. Technically in the surprise round whether you act or not you are "flat-footed" and they wanted to make a distinction between the surprise round (not a regular turn) and the regular combat round.

Excellent observation, assuming its accurate. I had not keyed into that specific use of the word "regular" and as such I didn't understand what anesti1 was asking.

 

[JamesonCourage]

If the game wanted to talk about your character waiting round, they would have simply used plaing English to say something like, "Your character waits around to take an action."

I'm assuming that this also applies to other things?

Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

Two-Weapon Fighting is dictating the penalties you take, not your character. Interesting.

Trip
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Trip is the same way.

Overrun
You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.) With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round.

As is overrun.

Bull Rush
You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge. When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

As is bull rush.

Disarm
As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If you do so with a weapon, you knock the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand.

As is disarm.

In fact, none of these maneuvers reference your character! They just say "you" may attempt something. Shouldn't, by all rights, the game say "[your character] can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge" or "with an overrun, [your character] attempts to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move"?

I really don't find your assertion of them saying "you" instead of your character being all that compelling.

I don't follow. The RAW says you can make that determination at any point...if you don't elect to change your Init "result" then you have to act on your original roll. It's not that complicated.

Show me where in the RAW is says you have to wait till your Init turn to choose to Delay? You have to wait until your Init to choose Ready...not Delay. What is true is that the last point at which you can choose to Delay is the original Init result.

Whoa, whoa. You're claiming "The RAW says you can make that determination at any point" but asking me to show where in the RAW it says I have to wait until my initiative to choose to Delay. I'd like to see where it says you can make that determination before your turn, please.

Delay, in the SRD, in it's entirety:

Delay
By choosing to delay, you take no action and then act normally on whatever initiative count you decide to act. When you delay, you voluntarily reduce your own initiative result for the rest of the combat. When your new, lower initiative count comes up later in the same round, you can act normally. You can specify this new initiative result or just wait until some time later in the round and act then, thus fixing your new initiative count at that point.

You never get back the time you spend waiting to see what’s going to happen. You can’t, however, interrupt anyone else’s action (as you can with a readied action).

Initiative Consequences of Delaying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed an action, you don’t get to take a delayed action (though you can delay again).

If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.

Please, show me where it says you can use the delay action any time you'd like, even if it's not your initiative. Since, as far as I can tell, there's no such wording (though your wording of "The RAW says you can make that determination at any point" seems to indicate that this isn't the case).

It says "You can specify this new initiative result" but it does not say when you can take that action.

As far as I can tell from the combat section, choosing what you'll be doing takes place on your turn (on your initiative).

And, as far as I can tell, initiative decides who can make decisions in what order.

Initiative Checks
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll. Characters act in order, counting down from highest result to lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

Initiative specifically mentions characters acting in order, not necessarily taking actions. If you still think the player is taking the action, I'd like to see why you think that, as even combat maneuvers say "you" instead of "your character" when being described.

The last sentence seems to imply, at least to me, that delaying or readying an action changes things specifically "in every round that follows" and not the first round. In the first round, it seems implied that the character will able to take an action (clear flat-footed moments before his initiative), choose to take no actions by delaying, and then potentially acting later on.

As always, play what you like

 

[kitcik]

The final word?

OK, so the question at hand is whether Delay is:

a) A metagame decision by the player which therefore does not require the character to do anything or make any decision - simply the alteration of a die roll, or

b) A decision by the character, whereby the character is choosing to delay their full round action until later later in the round.

Let's see...

We know that:

Delay: Delay is a nonaction you use to put off your turn until a point in the initiative order that's more favorable to you. You act normally (that is you can choose from the menu of actions noted in Part One) when you finally decide to act. When you finally take your delayed action, your initiative number changes, as noted on page 160 of the Player's Handbook. If you delay until another creature's turn, you can choose to act either before or after that creature acts, but of you choose to act before the creature, you must do so before you know what that creature will do.

And we also know that:

Nonaction: A nonaction is an activity that effectively takes no time at all (as opposed to a free action, which takes an insignificant amount of time), but it nevertheless involves some effort on your part.

So it would seem that I have been disillusioned - the all-knowing Arrowhawk is definitively wrong.

SHOCKING!