Flavor Mish-mash and favored classes (what 4e got wrong)

OK, I'll try to be a bit more helpful this time. . .

There was a thread over at RPGnet not so long ago, about allowing 4e races to choose both of their +2 ability score bonuses, rather than having them predetermined, whether they 'make sense' (subjectively) or not. Some folks suggested alternatives to that, like going half way, but there were also some who thought the +2/+2 [any] would be just fine. Humans might've needed something to compensate. . .? Anyhow, it's at those forums somewhere. Just remembered looking over it recently, out of curiosity. Might be useful, who knows.

edit -- Aha, finded it, I did! http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=448947
 
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I think they should have just killed off the sacred cow that is racial stat mods. They should have just upped the standard array and point buy values and let a race's flavor lie in the other abilities they receive. Starting with this as a base they could have adjusted 'the math' to accomodate that the highest starting stat would be an 18 or they could have extended point buy to include values for 19 and 20. Each character is unique anyway, why force a player to 'waste' his racial stat bonus is he wants to play a frail dwarf? An 8 constitution still falls in the range of norm for dwarves under the current default (+2 means dwarven Con falls between 5 and 20 in the 3 to 18 range). This would also help when you have a concept, but the temptation to steer away to another race is too strong because the stat bonuses don't mesh. The designers can still promote favored classes through flavored racial feats.
 

I think they should have just killed off the sacred cow that is racial stat mods. They should have just upped the standard array and point buy values and let a race's flavor lie in the other abilities they receive. Starting with this as a base they could have adjusted 'the math' to accomodate that the highest starting stat would be an 18 or they could have extended point buy to include values for 19 and 20. Each character is unique anyway, why force a player to 'waste' his racial stat bonus is he wants to play a frail dwarf? An 8 constitution still falls in the range of norm for dwarves under the current default (+2 means dwarven Con falls between 5 and 20 in the 3 to 18 range). This would also help when you have a concept, but the temptation to steer away to another race is too strong because the stat bonuses don't mesh. The designers can still promote favored classes through flavored racial feats.

You could take it a step further also. To compensate for the loss of bonuses from racial mods, you could add effects "similar" to having a score one higher; dwarves get an extra healing surge, elves get a +1 to hit with bows, halflings get +1 AC, etc...
 

If what your saying (OP) is correct. What should the racial bonuses be, to create less of a mish/mash?

As far as I can see.
Dwarves should have str/wis instead of con/wis
Teiflings con/cha instead of int/cha
And drow wis/cha instead of dex/cha

But thats about it really.
 
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I think they should have just killed off the sacred cow that is racial stat mods. They should have just upped the standard array and point buy values and let a race's flavor lie in the other abilities they receive. Starting with this as a base they could have adjusted 'the math' to accomodate that the highest starting stat would be an 18 or they could have extended point buy to include values for 19 and 20. Each character is unique anyway, why force a player to 'waste' his racial stat bonus is he wants to play a frail dwarf? An 8 constitution still falls in the range of norm for dwarves under the current default (+2 means dwarven Con falls between 5 and 20 in the 3 to 18 range). This would also help when you have a concept, but the temptation to steer away to another race is too strong because the stat bonuses don't mesh. The designers can still promote favored classes through flavored racial feats.

This.
 

If what your saying (OP) is correct. What should the racial bonuses be, to create less of a mish/mash?

As far as I can see.
Dwarves should have str/wis instead of con/wis
Teiflings con/cha instead of int/cha
And drow wis/cha instead of dex/cha

But thats about it really.

That would work for me! It would make dwarves good fighters, wardens and battle-clerics. Drow make good laser clerics (and oddly, good chaladins, nothings perfect) and tieflings good ANY type of warlocks, as well as valorous bards (again, nothings perfect).

Perhaps also make half-elves int/cha as well. Still good bards. Longtooth shifter steal Con/Wis (shaman). Heck, I wouldn't mind if something became Int/Con.
 

You could take it a step further also. To compensate for the loss of bonuses from racial mods, you could add effects "similar" to having a score one higher; dwarves get an extra healing surge, elves get a +1 to hit with bows, halflings get +1 AC, etc...

That would allow for anyone to play any race/class combination without drawbacks, but it doesn't appeal to the rules tinkerer in me. I like that certain races and classes are obviously better at various roles. The primary and secondary abilities can provide a lot of inspiration as to which magical tradition is dominant in a particular racial culture.

For example, while every race needs intelligence for wizards (making Eladrin, Humans, Devas, Tieflings and Genesai the best overall wizards) the different builds of wizards allow racial preferences to shine through. Elves, Eladrin and Half-Orcs favour wand weilding war wizards, Goliaths staff wielding abjurers or summoners, Devas favour the orb, etc.

Likewise, races favouring certain classes also helps define that race. For example, If I was a dwarf and the most powerful arcanists of my society were infernal warlocks, I'd hate and fear arcane magic too. These are little touches that would be lost if we moved to solely determining racial archetypes by racial feats. You'd get explicit feats or racial features that would favour a single class (ie. dwarf cleric) but you wouldn't get to discover the classes that the race is sort of good at. The unexpected combinations are part of the fun, and a chance to introduce a whole new culture of a particular race that we haven't seen before (like the devil worshipping Duegar, or druidic Hill Dwarves).

Where the race doesn't, or can't, fit all the archetypes of which they are associated, a new class or a class build can always be used. For example, if a dwarf isn't as good a paladin as he should be, new powers keyed to wisdom can always fix it. We would call this the "worrior monk" paladin build, to distinguish him from the "pillar of strength" build (strength based powers) and the chivalric knight (cha build powers). You can already see the races that would pick the particular type of paladin and how it suits them. The dwarves are wise and hearty, so they make good monks, while gnomes and half-elves make chivalric knights who toss around a lot of radiant damage.

Now there are two caveats to this solution.

1) If you're going to associate a particular race with a particular class, you should at least have the primary score of that class as a racial ability mod. The tiefling should be the best infernal warlocks, and while racial feats for tiefling warlocks help, they don't fix that tiefling wizards should be very good at summoning devils too. Tieflings are the only race that needs the ability score errata, in my opinion.

2) You have to not mind if races are advantaged in things you never really considered part of their archetype before. For example, elves are probably going to be advantaged as monks (or even my theoretical warrior monk paladin build) because of their wisdom score. If you just allow for a subculture of elves that are monastic (or more likely hermits) and go along, it is a great place to build new fluff. Just like it was fun finding out that halfings made the best wizards in 3e.
 


That would work for me! It would make dwarves good fighters, wardens and battle-clerics.

I don't know, I'm not willing to do without the dwarven con bonus, too much history. They should start play with the best fortitude defense and the most hit points, and that's before we consider the duegar warlocks. I would rather make builds of paladins and battle-clerics that use wisdom, and leave the barbarians and fighters to the humans, goliaths, half-orcs, minotaurs and dragonborn.

Drow make good laser clerics (and oddly, good chaladins, nothings perfect)

I also am not sure why drow should be good laser clerics. The radiant powers of the invoker and clerics are really all wrong for the drow. They use darkness, poison and summoned demons after all, not pillars of fire and summoned angels. So we either need another spellcasting divine powers that fit the drow better, or we assume that drow adventurers generally aren't part of the religious establishment.

and tieflings good ANY type of warlocks, as well as valorous bards (again, nothings perfect).

I don't see the need for tieflings to be good starlocks or feylocks. After all, they are pretty much stuffed with infernal flavour, so I'd rather make them better rogues and summoner wizards outside of being an infernal warlock. So +2 Dex/+2 Con or +2 Con/+2 Int would be my favoured choices, and I believe neither has

Perhaps also make half-elves int/cha as well. Still good bards.

The fey gnomes pretty much have that covered already, so adding the half-elf would be a little close conceptually.

Longtooth shifter steal Con/Wis (shaman).

That leaves the shifter without a barbarian option, which is weird. I'd be more inclined to make another type of shifter based on the werebear instead to be a good shaman. Con/Wis would suit a werebear shifter just fine.

Heck, I wouldn't mind if something became Int/Con.

I see this as a good build for a tiefling too. Good summoner wizards, good infernal warlocks, and the best build for a PH3 hybrid class of the two. If the upcoming necromancy class keyed off constitution and intelligence (which seems likely) they'd be good at that too.
 

I see this as a good build for a tiefling too. Good summoner wizards, good infernal warlocks, and the best build for a PH3 hybrid class of the two. If the upcoming necromancy class keyed off constitution and intelligence (which seems likely) they'd be good at that too.

An Int/Con Tielfling would excel at...

Defending Swordmages
Infernal (and Vestige) Warlocks.
Summoner or Staff Wizards

They'd make Good
Assault Swordmages
Illusionist, Orb or Wand Wizards

They would make Ok...

Earthblood Wardens, Shaman (any), Rageblood Barbarians, Guardian Druids, Axe/Hammer Fighters, Cunning Bards and Tactical/Resourceful Warlords

They would lose...

Cha-Paladins, Inspiring Warlords, Valorous Bards, Artful-Dodger Rogues, Sorcerers (any), and Fey or Dark Warlocks

Not the worst mix, and at least a bit more flavorful than having the same options as gnomes...
 

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