Fleeting Ghost lets you become hidden in cover or concealment?

[DonAdam]

Say my rogue walks up to a naked minotaur armed with a spear. He uses Nimble Fingers. What can he do with the nimble fingers?

Make said minotaur very happy?

I couldn't pass that one up. It was dangling there.

 

[Eldorian]

Make said minotaur very happy?

I couldn't pass that one up. It was dangling there.

Guess that's an act of legerdemain.

 

[Smeelbo]

My argument is obvious.

A sure sign of a weak argument. If it is "obvious," then it needn't be made explicitly, and by implication, anyone who disagrees must be stupid.

Powers that let you make a skill check don't allow you to use the skill in some way that contradicts the normal usage of the skill unless they explicitly state otherwise.

Other than declaring this to be the case, do you have any text, in either the PHB, DMG, or Errata, to support this assertion? Reading, I don't find any.

The rules for how to use skills are laid out on page 180 under "skill descriptions"...

Nothing on PHB 178-180 supports your argument.

...and the errata stealth entry.

Again, nothing to support the principle you are arguing.

On the other hand:

SPECIFIC BEATS GENERAL:
If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

In this case, the specific text of Fleeting Ghost overrides the general case of the errata for Stealth.

Here, let me give an example with a different power to let you see what's going on. My favorite power to bring up in these discussions, Nimble Fingers.

Argument by analogy is a classic logical fallacy. To say Nimble Fingers is "like" Fleeting Ghost, and therefore arguments made about Nimble Fingers apply to Fleeting Ghost is nothing more than flummery. The analogy is weak in any case. A Stealth check only ever accomplishes one thing, becoming or staying hidden, whereas Thievery checks may accomplish a variety of very distinct ends.

Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty.

This is the correct argument to make, namely that the specifics of Fleeting Ghost override the general case of this clause, which upon reading, seems a very reasonable interpretation.

Fleeting Ghost and Secret Stride are not identical however. Fleeting Ghost creates a move action that is an exception to Keeping Still, whereas Secret Stride removes the movement penalty to all Stealth checks unless a Run action is taken. Secret Stride applies to other forms of movement except running, such as shifting, or moving as part of another action, like a charge, whereas Fleeting Ghost only applies when that power is used as a move action.

In any case, I do not find that Eldorin's main argument, that powers never let you accomplish something not specifically allowed, has not been shown to be supported by the rules. His implicit argument, that Fleeting Ghost overrides Keeping Still, and not Becoming Hidden is a much better argument, and I agree.

Smeelbo

 

[Eldorian]

First off, an argument by analogy isn't a fallacy. Watch yourself, you're limiting your ability to learn. In my field, (mathematics) we often use such arguments, by showing two things are the same in the relevant sense, then proving something about one thing and implying it's true about the other. How the two things are alike is what's important. And in this case, both of them use the same language, and reference the use of a skill, which use the same general rules.

The text in the book that I rely on is the one you posted yourself.

SPECIFIC BEATS GENERAL:
If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins.

Fleeting Ghost's only contradiction of the specific rule is that you don't take the penalty for moving.

When the power says make a stealth check, it doesn't say you become hidden after using it. You have to reference what a stealth check can do. In stealth's case, it can do only one thing (in the player's handbook, outside of DM specified things such as skill challenges), and that is make you hidden. But it can do this only if you have total concealment or superior cover from some enemy.

Here is an example that ruins your line of thinking.

Say a rogue uses Fleeting Ghost and moves into a square which provides superior cover from foe 1, and concealment from foe 2. He moves, and makes a stealth check. He looks up stealth, and reads that he can only make it against a foe he has total concealment or superior cover from, so he can become hidden from foe 1, but not foe 2. The power didn't say he can make a stealth check against every foe, just that he could make one.

There. He got to make his stealth check to become hidden (your whole argument is that the power makes him make a stealth check, so he HAS to have the ability to become hidden because that's all stealth can do.)

However, if he only had cover from foe 1, he could have become hidden from both (he had to make a stealth check, and neither of his opponents were more deserving of getting hid from). That, my friend, is a reductio ad absurdum. If you like logic so much.

 

[Smeelbo]

My current interpretation is now that Fleeting Ghost grants a move action that is an exception to Keeping Still from the Stealth errata. My mistake was seeing it as an exception to Becoming Hidden, from the same errata.

Smeelbo

 

[Vegepygmy]

In this case, the specific text of Fleeting Ghost overrides the general case of the errata for Stealth.

But Fleeting Ghost doesn't specify that it overrides the normal Stealth rules. It is silent on the point. Therefore, the reasonable interpretation is that it doesn't alter the normal Stealth rules beyond what is explicitly stated...so you still need superior cover or total concealment to become hidden.

EDIT: ninja'd!

 

[Eldorian]

My current interpretation is now that Fleeting Ghost grants a move action that is an exception to Keeping Still from the Stealth errata. My mistake was seeing it as an exception to Becoming Hidden, from the same errata.

Smeelbo

Excuse me while I go buy lottery tickets.

 

[Spatula]

But that's not what Fleeting Ghost reads. It gives the rogue a new move action whose effect grants you a Stealth check without penalty for moving your full speed. The effect of a successful Stealth check is that you become hidden.

The effect of a successful Stealth check is that you become hidden, if you have something to hide behind. Fleeting Ghost just says you can make a Stealth check, it doesn't say, "make a Stealth check and become hidden regardless of cover or concealment."

EDIT: I see this has already been resolved. Sorry!