Flipping Module Conversion on its Head

[S'mon]

This is an interesting commentary, and I remember hearing the same thing. I've done quite a bit of converting from earlier editions to 4e. What I have found is that the adventures "play" much better in the 4e ruleset, than in the original.

That's my impression so far, too. 3e/d20 works well for 1st-8th level sandbox/open play, as in Necromancer's 3e adventures (now Frog God & Pathfinder), but is a terrible fit with the storypath play of Paizo's Adventure Paths. So much of each AP's GM advice is devoted to working around the system. The set piece BBEG encounters that Paizo loves can be terribly bathetic or easily TPK - with a wafer thin line between the two. Converting Crimson Throne to 4e, again and again it feels like 4e was made for just exactly this sort of high drama, storyboarded play. The conversion often seems to leap out at me from the page, as if it was immanent in the existing text, just buried under the 3e cruft.

But business wise of course Paizo made the right decision. The GSL terms were completely unacceptable and they were right to ignore it; plus they had a ready made market of 3e fans to cater to.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

If you don't mind elaborating, what did you not find satisfying when you made the conversions? I was reading through the first page of the thread you have for RotR and didn't see anything in there that easily pointed to it.

Some of the tropes and challenges of pre-4E that I enjoy just don't work anymore. Simple traps that present a real challenge. Small quick encounters that risk real resources. And I've come to dislike minions. The characters my players enjoy playing turn encounters with multiple minions into encounters with a net gain due to effects triggered on a creature's death. These specifics and other matters of taste lead to a broader wrong feeling for me.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Monster in the Closet encounter. That led me to a couple of questions:

1) Did your players question why there were a couple of goblins hiding in a kid's closet? And why they didn't just kill the kid, dog, maybe even family, earlier?

I didn't think the multiple goblins worked in play and this is one of the reasons I'm not happy with the conversions I've made. That goblin in the original is meant to tax a small chunk of resources out of four 1st-level PCs, but instead might as well be a transitional encounter if not upped in challenge for 5 1st-level 4E PCs.

2) Is there something about 4e that encouraged you to make it a combat challenge rather than an easier beatdown or passing encounter? Are non-challenging encounters not worth the time to play out with combat in 4e? Does the edition put you in a mindset focused around presenting a more mechanically engaging situation? Do you feel that 4e encourages doing so more than presenting a non-mechanical situational enigma?

It was my desire for it to be roughly as challenging as it was in 3E. That single goblin is a level-equivalent challenge there, not just a passing encounter.

3) Had you encountered Danniger's conversion before and were influenced by it?

No.

 

[S'mon]

I didn't think the multiple goblins worked in play and this is one of the reasons I'm not happy with the conversions I've made. That goblin in the original is meant to tax a small chunk of resources out of four 1st-level PCs, but instead might as well be a transitional encounter if not upped in challenge for 5 1st-level 4E PCs.

I don't think it was meant to be a challenge at all; it (one CR 1/4 goblin vs 1st level PCs) was a social/roleplay/atmosphere encounter, not a real combat challenge. There was almost no risk of PC death and we could rest afterwards so there was no resource attrition either.
Quite a few of the AP encounters seem written that way. Doing my own conversion I find it's pretty obvious which encounters are actually supposed to be challenges and which are for atmosphere or plot development. Also, trying to make every encounter a challenge is a bad idea in 4e and leads to that feeling of grind that people associate with published WotC 4e modules.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I don't think it was meant to be a challenge at all; it (one CR 1/4 goblin vs 1st level PCs) was a social/roleplay/atmosphere encounter, not a real combat challenge.

It was not 1 CR 1/4 goblin. The goblin was a Level 1 Ranger, CR 1, thus EL 1.

There was almost no risk of PC death and we could rest afterwards so there was no resource attrition either.

There was a chance of resource attrition in 3E. Not in 4E though.

Quite a few of the AP encounters seem written that way. Doing my own conversion I find it's pretty obvious which encounters are actually supposed to be challenges and which are for atmosphere or plot development.

Your personal recognition of what encounters should be has little bearing on what others want for their game. My players only recognize threats when those threats are credible. A lone goblin that poses little threat to anyone isn't some horrid monster to them, it's just more comic relief hinding in a closet scared of the family dog.

Also, trying to make every encounter a challenge is a bad idea in 4e and leads to that feeling of grind that people associate with published WotC 4e modules.

Good point. But I'd like to be able to present a challenge that lies between "not a challenging encounter" and "challenging encounter" which 4E doesn't handle well.

 

[Manbearcat]

I don't think it was meant to be a challenge at all; it (one CR 1/4 goblin vs 1st level PCs) was a social/roleplay/atmosphere encounter, not a real combat challenge.

Your personal recognition of what encounters should be has little bearing on what others want for their game. My players only recognize threats when those threats are credible. A lone goblin that poses little threat to anyone isn't some horrid monster to them, it's just more comic relief hinding in a closet scared of the family dog.

<snip> I'd like to be able to present a challenge that lies between "not a challenging encounter" and "challenging encounter" which 4E doesn't handle well.

Just a question and a couple of thoughts as I'm entirely unfamiliar with the source material. From what I'm reading it seems that this is a stand-alone encounter with no stakes or relevance related to the greater story arc, yes? If that is true then I would suggest distilling precisely what you're looking to get out of this scene and adjusting the premise and mechanics to meet that goal.

I could easily see this being a non-combat encounter whereby the goblin is a deserter from a raiding party who didn't have the stomach for butchering. Perhaps he's holed himself away in this closet and sneaks out at night, stealing the remnants of table scraps and squirreling himself away in the closet or perhaps the cellar. One day the family dog catches whiff of him and all hell breaks loose. The terrified family is now outside with the creature trapped in the closet or the cellar with the dog ceaselessly, vigilantly barking. Or maybe the goblin, being discovered by the child, has snatched him and is holding him hostage (without any exit strategy plan for any of it...he just doesn't want the door to open and the dog to chew him to bits). The stakes are different here as is the thematic relevance. You've got the potential for a non-combat social encounter and possibly the difficulty of disarming the dog's protective instincts. You have questions of mercy and property rights that would need to be addressed and would help shape the characters as they move forward into the campaign.

Or, I could easily see this turning into something more ominous. Perhaps the closet or cellar is a portal to the Far Realm or the Feywild. Maybe its not a goblin. Maybe its a Quickling or a diabolical abomination who has been performing reconnaissance on the town/city (in preparation for a raiding party or full scale invasion) via this portal and the dog has spotted the creature going back in and shutting the door. The dog is rabbidly barking at the door...the PCs carefully open it. The dog sniffs around wildly, uncovering every crevice...but there is nothing. Perhaps unlocking the mystery of the portal and the potential raid is its own mini-adventure.

Or it could be a singular goblin, afflicted by some form of madness (that makes it more powerful) holed up in the closet, eating shoes, coats, flesh, gnawing on floorboards...whatever it can get its mindless grubby hands on. A bloody encounter with it could set off a madness pestilence (Disease Track) that spreads to the PCs and the town proper. Then a proper Exploration Skill Challenge to find the means to cure it is set in motion by the town's healer/medicine man.

4e would do all of those quite well. Again, I don't know the stakes or relevance of this creature but if its detached from the greater story (and just color or a stand-alone adventure) then you should be able to employ any number of options.

 

[S'mon]

It was not 1 CR 1/4 goblin. The goblin was a Level 1 Ranger, CR 1, thus EL 1.

There was a chance of resource attrition in 3E. Not in 4E though.

Your personal recognition of what encounters should be has little bearing on what others want for their game. My players only recognize threats when those threats are credible. A lone goblin that poses little threat to anyone isn't some horrid monster to them, it's just more comic relief hinding in a closet scared of the family dog.

If it was a Ranger-1*, well that made no discernable difference to the threat it posed our PF group, which appeared to be effectively nil. It was hiding in a closet and it didn't feel like a Ranger 1 to me. It didn't feel like a threat - it did feel like a grotesque sort of comic relief/atmosphere thing.
On attrition - I would have been a pretty crappy PF Cleric if I couldn't restore my group back to full health after that encounter! We never started a fight in Burnt Offerings at less than full hp, even when we were down the dungeons, and frankly in practice I don't think there is all that much more resource attrition in 3e/PF than in 4e.

*Which in PF is CR 1/2, not CR 1, anyway.

 

[billd91]

If it was a Ranger-1*, well that made no discernable difference to the threat it posed our PF group, which appeared to be effectively nil. It was hiding in a closet and it didn't feel like a Ranger 1 to me. It didn't feel like a threat - it did feel like a grotesque sort of comic relief/atmosphere thing.
On attrition - I would have been a pretty crappy PF Cleric if I couldn't restore my group back to full health after that encounter! We never started a fight in Burnt Offerings at less than full hp, even when we were down the dungeons, and frankly in practice I don't think there is all that much more resource attrition in 3e/PF than in 4e.

*Which in PF is CR 1/2, not CR 1, anyway.

Well, you have to realize that PF goblins are afraid of and hate dogs, so it took him a lot of hunger to finally take on the family dog as a lone goblin. But he serves a purpose and not just for black comedy, even if there is an element of it. He shows that goblins are not just comedy, but also vile little bastards.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

*Which in PF is CR 1/2, not CR 1, anyway.

Rise of the Runelords was written for 3.5E, not Pathfinder. I have the physical copy in front of me, CR 1.

I'm not sure how PF compares to 3.5, but a spell to heal the party to full is still using resources. With the plethora of encounter power temp hit points in 4E it is likel to exit a single-goblin encounter with literally no resources spent.

 

[S'mon]

Rise of the Runelords was written for 3.5E, not Pathfinder. I have the physical copy in front of me, CR 1.

No, we were playing the Pathfinder hardback anniversary reissue. They converted it to Pathfinder for the hardback.

Edit: In PF Clerics can channel positive energy to heal the whole party (my Cleric had it 4 times/day at level 1, d6 hp to every PC, as well as normal spell healing); in practice there is plenty of healing to go round. In 3e you would have to spend 12.5gp per scroll of cure light wounds or 750gp for 50 clws in a wand, which might be significant at very low level.