Flurry of Blows and Two Weapon Fighting

[Camarath]

Here is a previous thread discussing this 3.5 issue for any who are intrested. Monks and two weapons

My position is that the rules allow them to stack. But there is some indication (email sage response) that is was not the intent of the rules.

 

[LokiDR]

Here is a previous thread discussing this 3.5 issue for any who are intrested. Monks and two weapons

My position is that the rules allow them to stack. But there is some indication (email sage response) that is was not the intent of the rules.

I agree, but it is pretty appearent that this will be one of the first points in the new FAQ. The trick on shuriken is quite nifty.

I don't think this is all that powerful. You take a -2 on all attacks and have .5 str on off-hand attacks. Monks don't have the greatest BAB in the first place, and you need a lot of levels in monk to completely make this work. Have your extra attacks, I think the power attacking barbarian with great axe will outdamage you.

 

[kreynolds]

I'm with Aggemam on this one.

 

[MarauderX]

Ah Mr. Miagyi teach:

If a monk weapon, furry of bows, yes.
If monk weapon no, use two-weapon fight rules.

Nuff said.

The staff is a monk weapon, and can be used for flurry of blows.
Not sure if the TWF would work in conjunction with it, and I think it's kind of a waste of a feat on a monk. Although I don't have a book in front of me right now, I am pretty sure it says in the class description that a monk doesn't have an 'off-hand', and can use monk weapons interchangeably with flurry of blows regardless of what they are.

 

[Camarath]

The staff is a monk weapon, and can be used for flurry of blows.
Not sure if the TWF would work in conjunction with it, and I think it's kind of a waste of a feat on a monk. Although I don't have a book in front of me right now, I am pretty sure it says in the class description that a monk doesn't have an 'off-hand', and can use monk weapons interchangeably with flurry of blows regardless of what they are.

It says (under the Unarmed Strike ability descritption) that wile fighting unarmed the monk does not have an off-hand. It says no such thing about monk weapons or that Flurry of Blows prevents taking off-hand attacks with monk weapons.

 

[Tessarael]

Munchkinism aside, I see no reason for flurry to stack with two-weapon feats.

Flurry gives two extra attacks at high attack bonus, which is substantially better (in my opinion) than the two-weapon feats. Consider a 20th level monk, his flurry attacks are:
+15/+15/+15/+10/+5 with full STR bonus, or 1.5x STR bonus using Monk weapon two-handed (more on this later)

Compare that to using two-weapon fighting only, say with the full feat chain (Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved TWF, Greater TWF) and Monk BAB of +15 at 20th level assuming a light off-hand weapon:
+13/+8/+3 with full STR bonus, and
+13/+8/+3 with 0.5 STR bonus

Flurry is much better. You miss out on one attack, but all your attacks have +2 better chance to hit. Now as you're a Monk, you could use that to Power Attack .

Flurry specifies that the Monk must be unarmored, which probably means you can't use a shield, though it's not specifically stated (is a shield armor?). It doesn't say that you can't use your special Monk weapon two-handed, so here's the munchkin scenario that I would allow:

+15/+15/+15/+10/+5 with 1.5x STR bonus and Monk weapon, and Power Attack giving you +2 damage for every -1 to hit. So the best case same attack bonus scenario compared to the two-weapon chain of feats is:
+13/+13/+13/+8/+3 with +4 damage Power Attack on a d6 weapon. (Assume the weapon is Quarterstaff to avoid spending an Exotic Weapon feat.)

I think this last scenario is much better than two-weapon feat chains for a Monk. The Monk can spend his feats on Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Critical, Improved Grapple, etc.

I'd be tempted to take 4 levels in Fighter to get Specialization for +2 damage in that Monk weapon, and Fighter 4/Monk 16 has BAB +16, so one extra attack too:
+16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1

There's no way I as a DM want flurry stacking with two-weapon feats, way too many attacks and overpowered in some situations.

 

[Camarath]

Munchkinism aside, I see no reason for flurry to stack with two-weapon feats.

You mean other than the rules not clearly prohibiting the combination any way.

It doesn't say that you can't use your special Monk weapon two-handed, so here's the munchkin scenario that I would allow:

Did you see this?

From SRD
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus x 1-1/2 or x1/2) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

So no Str x1.5 when using flurry.

There's no way I as a DM want flurry stacking with two-weapon feats, way too many attacks and overpowered in some situations.

That is of course your prerogative. Just as it is mine to allow the combination of abilities that no one has demonstrated to be incompatible with the rules as they are written.

 

[Tessarael]

Hey Camaranth,

Good catch on the 2H-Monk weapon 1x STR bonus - my bad. By the rules as written, I think Power Attack does add +2 damage if you're wielding the Monk weapon two-handed, which is very nice.

Add an "in my opinion" at the top of my post. I wasn't intending to flame anyone, just saying what I felt was balanced and what I felt was not balanced.

- Tess

 

[Camarath]

Hey Camarath,

Good catch on the 2H-Monk weapon 1x STR bonus - my bad. By the rules as written, I think Power Attack does add +2 damage if you're wielding the Monk weapon two-handed, which is very nice.

Add an "in my opinion" at the top of my post. I wasn't intending to flame anyone, just saying what I felt was balanced and what I felt was not balanced.

- Tess

I think you are right about Power Atttack.

I am sorry I thought your opening statement was you saw no reason for them to stack based on the rules rather than game balance. I didn't think your post a flame and I am sorry if I came off a bit strong. (I guess I have a tendence to come off that way.)

 

[LokiDR]

Back in that flurry/TWF/rapid shot thread, we discussed just how many attacks you would get and the bonuses on each. I honestly don't think it is unbalanced. Machine gun vs sniper rifle. If the million shuriken aren't imbalanced, I fail to see how the quarterstaff is.

Does anyone want to run the numbers of the flurry/twf vs the flurry alone?