Flurry of Blows and Two Weapon Fighting

[LokiDR]

So, the Sage says they don't stack, which is a point in favour of "They don't stack".

The lead designer for 3.5 says they don't stack, which is a big point in favour of "They don't stack".

And Customer Service says they do stack, which is the biggest point in favour of "They don't stack"...

-Hyp.

Ok, customer support agrees with me, I must be wrong.

Seriously though, the rules don't state this anywhere. I expect it in the FAQ or errata, but untill then, this is all unofficial and we only have the rules. There is no reason in the rules they can't stack. I don't intend to build a character on this if it is most likely going to be changed, however.

 

[Camarath]

Thanks Tessarael. I know the rules can't be prefect. It just annoys me that the first thought I had wile reading the new flurry (ooh I wonder if this works with TWF) was not even considered by the development team.

I used the formula you laid out to find the average damage. Here are the results I got. I am assuming a +4 str bonus and a + 5 enhancement bonus (to attack and damage). Well here goes, if these look off could someone please tell me.

Ranger level 20 with a 1d8 double weapon
AC 11 – 83.125
AC 16 – 81.875
AC 21 – 76.25
AC 26 – 64.375
AC 31 – 46.25
AC 36 – 26.875
AC 41 – 13.125
AC 46 – 5.625

Monk level 20 unarmed (2d10) with flurry
AC 11 - 95
AC 16 – 95
AC 21 – 90
AC 26 – 80
AC 31 – 55
AC 36 – 32
AC 41 – 14
AC 46 - 5

Monk level 20 with quarterstaff (1d6) flurry and TWF
AC 11 - 95
AC 16 – 92.5
AC 21 – 83.75
AC 26 – 66.25
AC 31 – 41.25
AC 36 - 21.25
AC 41 – 7.5
AC 46 - 5

 

[LokiDR]

Interesting that a monk with TWF/flurry stacking doesn't beat unarmed flurry. Obviously, levels other than 20 are important, but I think this is pretty clear indication that TWF+flurry isn't as bad as many would make it out to be.

 

[Devilkiller]

The Sage's answer seems to be from the 3.0 era and uses 3.0 mechanics as far as I can tell. A monk with a special monk weapon in one hand can make any number of the attacks in a flurry with that weapon in 3.5. At least that's how I'm reading the PHB and what Andy had told me on the WotC boards.

I think it is fairly clear from Andy's answer that FoB and TWF weren't intended to stack. The rules are unclear though, and some folks seem to think that the abilities really should stack. I fint the mathematical "proof" that a TWF monk would be inferior to a normal monk rather suspect though. Before even attempting to double check the math I've noticed a few potential pitfalls.

First, we're assuming a +4 Str bonus and +5 enhancement. If the unarmed monk is getting that enhancement from an Amulet of Mighty Fists that's a 150,000gp item. Two +5 weapons would only be 100,000gp. The TWF monk could spend part of his extra 50k on a Belt of Giant Str +6. That would not only offset the TWF penalty but give him an effective +1 to hit. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that giving the weapon properties like shocking and frost would bump up the advantage enjoyed by the TWF monk even more.

 

[Snipehunt]

Which makes the monk w/ TWF better (marginally) than a monk w/o at dealing damage, which I would hope after blowing feats on the fighting style. I would hope you'd get something out of it.

The same magical bonuses would need to be added to the ranger, though, and would still make the monk w/ TWF less effective than a ranger. So, it's hard to see how TWF and flurry is overpowering. Better (at combat) then a non-TWF monk. Not as good as other fighters. But has has special abilities to even things up.

It might not have been intentional, but a TWF flurry is hardly the munchkin ploy gate still is. I'm letting it run until I see an offical rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that giving the weapon properties like shocking and frost would bump up the advantage enjoyed by the TWF monk even more.

Wounding...

-Hyp.

 

[Camarath]

First, we're assuming a +4 Str bonus and +5 enhancement.

I ran the numbers with the +9 to attack and damage because the difference between the Unarmed monk and TWF/Flurry Monk seemed to be too great. Here are what the numbers looked like with out the any thing except BAB and average weapon damage.

Monk unarmed with flurry
Ac 11 – 50.05
Ac 16 – 45.1
Ac 21 – 33
Ac 26 – 19.8
Ac 31 – 9.35
Ac 36 – 2.75

Monk with quarterstaff flurry and TWF
Ac 11 – 24.15
Ac 16 – 19.95
Ac 21 – 12.95
Ac 26 – 7
Ac 31 – 2.8
Ac 36 – 1.4

 

[Celtavian]

re

I'll take the ruling of the offical folks that TWF and FoB don't stack. That seems how it should be anyway.

 

[LokiDR]

I'll take the ruling of the offical folks that TWF and FoB don't stack. That seems how it should be anyway.

Untill it is in the FAQ or errata, it isn't official, even if it comes from "official" folks.

 

[bertman4]

Aren't you forgetting that an unarmed flurry at 20th level is magical, axiomatic and adamantine equivalent? Shouldn't eapon comparison should include those benefits?

Bertman