Flurry of Blows to initiate a Grapple?

[Dannyalcatraz]

A glossary defines the term- how it is used in language. The rest of the book tells you the mechanical aspects of it- how the defined term's details are used as a practical matter.

If I look in my Accounting & Finance books, the glossary will tell me what a term is. However, the chapters within the book tell me the mathematical realities of how to use the term that was defined in the glossary.

Example: I go into the glossary of Horngren Sundem & Elliot's Introduction to Financial Accounting and look up "pretax operating rate of return on total assets (return on total assets (ROA))" in the glossary, it is defined as "operating income divided by sales."

However, despite being a definition, that doesn't help me calculate anything from incomplete data...something I can do if I look on p 573 and find the ratios "operating income percentage on sales" and "total asset turnover."

IOW, the glossary tells me how a particular FA term is defined, the book tells me how to calculate it from raw data.

Or consider "sigma." It has some very different definitions- the 18th greek letter, the ancient greek symbol for 200, or a symbol for standard deviation (and about 8 other uses in science). In a book on learning Greek, you'd go with the former definition and then look elsewhere to figure out how its pronounced or if there are any special rules for its use (Like, hypothetically, "Sigma after Theta, except after Pi") and how to distinguish it from its use as a letter from its use as a number. In a book on math or stats, you'd go with the latter definition, then look to other text within the book on how to calculate sigma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_(letter)

Likewise, the PHB glossary tells me what an Unarmed Strike is (the language of it)- "a successful blow"- and the equipment section tells me what an unarmed strike does within the mechanics of the game system- how many d6, whether its lethal or not, etc. (the "math" of it).

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

According to the SRD:

Grapple [Note 7]

7: These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.

The monk has a method to increase his number of attacks in a full attack action. As long as he is applying the FoB penalty to the grapple checks themselves in addition to the touch attack, I don't see the abuse here. Grappling is a good option in some cases, but it also has its downside. A monk that focuses in grappling will do well at low levels against humanoid opponets. At higher levels there are too many things that negate the monk's ability to effectively grapple anymore. Spellcasters have freedom of movement, fighters have a higher BAB and strength, many enemies outclass the monk in size. I am surprised to see so many people here fighting against this FAQ ruling when it is really inconsequential to the monk's long-term power.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Likewise, the PHB glossary tells me what an Unarmed Strike is (the language of it)- "a successful blow"- and the equipment section tells me what an unarmed strike does within the mechanics of the game system- how many d6, whether its lethal or not, etc. (the "math" of it).

But the PHB doesn't tell you everything, because it's obviously possible to make an unsuccessful attack with an unarmed strike within the mechanics of the game system.

Such as if you apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to your attack roll with an unarmed strike (as described in the equipment section)... and that attack roll is a natural 1!

The glossary is handy. But it doesn't give you all the information, and it's frequently contradicted once that extended information is examined.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

7: These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.

Right, but they'll still be subject to the same restrictions as the melee attack they're substituting for.

If I have the Cleave feat, and I drop someone with my shortsword, I get an immediate extra melee attack that must be made with the shortsword. I could substitute that attack for a Disarm... but it would have to be a Disarm made with the shortsword, not with the longsword in my other hand, because the attack I am substituting has an 'only with the same weapon' restriction.

If I have a flail and a kama, and I use Flurry of Blows, I cannot attack with the flail, because it is neither an unarmed strike nor a special monk weapon. I can substitute a melee attack for a Trip attempt... but it must be a Trip with the kama, not with the flail, because the attack I am substituting must be made with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon, so I can only Trip with an unarmed strike or special monk weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Legildur]

"successful blow, typically dealing non-lethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons."

Precisely! Just exactly how does a character attack without weapons and land a successful blow? With an unarmed strike, of course.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But the PHB doesn't tell you everything, because it's obviously possible to make an unsuccessful attack with an unarmed strike within the mechanics of the game system.

Wrong- an unarmed strike is by definition a successful blow- in other words, it is an unarmed attack that has been successfully executed. An unsuccessful unarmed attack is a "miss" (like any other attack in the game).

Just exactly how does a character attack without weapons and land a successful blow? With an unarmed strike, of course.

No, he performs an unarmed attack. If his attack is successful, he has struck his opponent, and his unarmed strike has the effect intended (damage, sunder, stun, touch spell delivery, trip, etc.).

FWIW, a player I know has been looking at this thread with some amusement & he submitted the following question to WotC CustServ:

Customer (************) 11/30/2006 11:51 PM
Is unarmed attack a synonym for unarmed strike or is there an actual distinction?

They have seperate entries in the PHB glossary, but they aren't mutually exclusive, so I'm still confused.

And received this response...

Response (Zephreum H.) 12/01/2006 07:14 AM
Thank you for contacting us.

Yes these terms are synonymous with each other.

Take Care!
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Zephreum.
Customer Service Representative
Wizards of the Coast

I know, not everyone agrees with CustServ or FAQ (obviously!)...and they have made mistakes in the past. Heck...this response isn't even in full accord with my position.

However, I'm clearly not the only one who thinks along these lines.

 

[Legildur]

Wrong- an unarmed strike is by definition a successful blow- in other words, it is an unarmed attack that has been successfully executed. An unsuccessful unarmed attack is a "miss" (like any other attack in the game).

Maybe this is where the term Flurry of Misses comes from

Seriously, earlier in the thread it is clearly quoted that "when using flurry of blows, a monk may only attack with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons". Are you saying that a monk using FoB automatically hits with each attack? (which is how I'm reading your paragraph on this) I'm sure monks would be more popular if that were the case.

 

[Egres]

Also correct- only the successful ones are.

Are you really saying that a claw (natural weapon=unarmed attack) attack becomes an unarmed strike if successful?

 

[glass]

Are you really saying that a claw (natural weapon=unarmed attack) attack becomes an unarmed strike if successful?

Claws are weapons. If you have a weapon, you aren't unarmed.

An unarmed strike is an unarmed attack. Not all unarmed attacks, however, are unarmed strikes.

I'd rephrase that ever-so-slightly. An attack made with an unarmed strike is an unarmed attack. Not all unarmed attacks, however, are made with unarmed strikes.


glass.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Are you saying that a monk using FoB automatically hits with each attack?

Not quite, though it may seem like it.

What I'm saying is that:

1) By definition, an unarmed strike is the result of a successful combat roll when using an unarmed attack.

2) However, as is obvious from both the CustServ answer and the rest of the text of the book in general is that the terms "unarmed strike" and "unarmed attack" are not used with any real precision, and are, in fact, used rather interchangeably.

Just as you point out, if they are truly synonyms, FoB becomes quite powerful- automatic multiple hits? Who wouldn't want that? But that is clearly not what is intended.

OTOH, just a few paragraphs away, if they are not treated the way the PHB glossary defines them, Ki Strike becomes the description of of a power that overcomes DR for attacks that don't do damage...except for unarmed strikes (the only unarmed attacks defined as doing damage). Again...not what is intended.

The imprecision I describe in "2" shouldn't come as a surprise- while the game defines natural weapons as something seperate from unarmed attacks/strikes, there are sections of text within the PHB and other WotC products that clearly equate normal human fists with natural weapons, which I know from past experience on these boards is definitely NOT the predominant opinion as to their nature. Heck, even WotC CustServ doesn't equate the two.

Similarly "precision damage" and "vital area" that are crucial to a Rogue's sneak attack are only vaguely delineated and open to interpretation- the phrases don't have any game mechanical meaning.

Which, BTW, does give the "No grapple w/FoB" crowd something different to work with. FoB is described as sacrificing precision of attacks for an increase in the amount of attacks. There is nothing to prevent a ruling that Grappling requires a certain measure of accuracy that cannot be achieved in a Flurry.

Of course, going that way leads to its own problems- if Grappling requires precision, surely Stunning blows, Disarms, Sunders, Trips and other special combat maneuvers do as well.