Flurry of Blows to initiate a Grapple?

[Hypersmurf]

In post #23, Infiniti2000 would seem to disagree with you, H-Smurf.

Or that they only unarmed strike while FoB?

Correct (or use a special monk weapon). This is stated quite clearly, and explicitly. Unless you can argue that you can use an "unarmed strike" to grapple, a monk cannot grapple while flurrying.

I don't buy that for a minute- a monk (or any PC, for that matter) should be able to unarmed strike at any time they can do a regular melee attack.

[blink] You don't?

That startles me. I'm not aware of anyone else who holds that position.

I think you and I2K are reading your sentence above in two different ways.

"Or that they only unarmed strike while FoB?"

You're reading it as "The only time you can use an unarmed strike is during a Flurry of Blows".
He's reading it as "During a Flurry of Blows, the only attack you can make is an unarmed strike" - and he clarifies with "or special monk weapon" in his response.

Both are valid readings of your sentence, but only one of them actually fits with the rules. A monk - or a fighter - can take the attack action, and use the single attack that permits to make an unarmed strike. A monk - or a fighter - can take the full attack action, and use the potentially multiple attacks from a high BAB to make several unarmed strikes. A monk (not a fighter) can, while taking the full attack action, use Flurry of Blows to gain an extra attack... but all attacks made while using Flurry of Blows must be made with unarmed strikes or special monk weapons.

A monk can certainly use his unarmed strike whether or not he is using Flurry of Blows.

Now, we've already established that:

1) RAW, unarmed attacks do no damage- there is no data in text or chart describing the damage an "Unarmed Attack" does. Unarmed strikes, yes, but not unarmed attacks.

We haven't established this. We've established that an unarmed attack does not necessarily deal any damage simply by virtue of being an unarmed attack, but we know that certain unarmed attacks - such as an unarmed strike or a successful grapple - can deal damage.

It's as though you've said "We've established that fruit is not red - there is no chart describing the colour of 'fruit'. Strawberries, yes, but not fruit - therefore strawberries are not fruit."

Strawberries are a subset of fruit, and are red, even though fruit is not required to be red. Unarmed strikes are a subset of unarmed attacks, and deal damage, even though unarmed attacks are not required to deal damage.

While the original text would seem to imply that all of the monk's unarmed attacks are enhanced by Ki Strike, this clearly cannot be the case unless Unarmed attacks = Unarmed strikes. A Ki Strike no more enhances the non-unarmed strike unarmed attacks than my prescription glasses would help a blind man see. The supernatural ability enhances the ability to do damage...and unarmed attacks RAW do no damage.

Some unarmed attacks do deal damage. Not all.

Let's say there's a rule that nothing red can be brought into a room. I have a card that says any fruit I carry is exempt from the "Nothing red" rule.

If I'm carrying a pineapple, it's exempt from the "Nothing red" rule because of my card, even though it would have been fine anyway. If I'm carrying a strawberry, it's also exempt from the "Nothing red" rule because of my card, and I can carry it into the room even though it would normally be disallowed.

The card could have been more specific, and mentioned strawberries by name, or 'red fruit'. But it's not incorrect for it to just reference 'fruit', even though not all fruit is affected by the "Nothing red" rule in the first place.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'll boil my position down to its barest: Unarmed Strike is just another name for a successful unarmed attack, nothing more, nothing less.

That position is in accord with the PHB definitions of unarmed attack & unarmed strike; it keeps the interaction of "unarmed attack" and DR language of Ki Strike from being 90% garbage; it meshes with the FAQ ruling on the direct questions of being able to do special combat maneuvers with FoB; it creates no problems with the language under "Unarmed Attacks on pg 139 which starts off with "Striking for damage..."; it is roughly analogous to the language dealing with regular armed attacks on pg 139, just above that unarmed attacks section.

Even when we look at Grapple, there is no distinction. That section's closest brush with calling it an "Unarmed attack" is "struggling hand-to-hand"; you do damage after a successful grapple roll- a successful unarmed attack (which is how the PHB and I both define an unarmed strike). Since we're dealing with near synonyms, we can't legitimately say "Unarmed attack" = "struggling hand-to-hand" while saying "Unarmed attack" ≠ "unarmed strike" without some kind of proof of the former. Thus, we can't really call Grapple an unarmed attack or an unarmed strike under the "Unarmed attack" ≠ "unarmed strike" interpretation of the rules.

The PHB defines Unarmed attack as a melee attack "with no weapon in hand," and an Unarmed Strike as a "successful blow, typically dealing non-lethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons."

I've seen several people on these boards ridicule that definition based on the assumption that a "strike" is merely the name for a subset of unarmed attacks.

And it is- its just not the subset they're assuming. They're defining Unarmed Strike as a group of specific kinds of attack you get from the Feat IUC- Flying Mare kicks, Tiger claw strikes, or some such- martial arts maneuvers as opposed to the regular, untrained flailing about without a weapon.

In reality "unarmed strikes" are the subset of successful unarmed attacks.

Contrast the postion where unarmed attacks are something very different from unarmed strikes. You have to go to special attack manuvers- trips, grapples, etc. to find what the result of an unarmed "attack" is- there is no entry, no discernable existence for unarmed "attacks" seperate from them that I can find. Even the section on "'Armed' Unarmed Attacks" equates monk attacks with touch spells and natural weapons and doesn't talk about results until you reach the section on "Unarmed strike damage." This position also makes a horrible mash of the Ki Strike language.

 

[glass]

Re the difference between unarmed strikes and unarmed attacks: unarmed strike is a weapon. Unarmed attack is an attack. That is the distinction.

Saying the is no standard damage for an unarmed attack is like saying their is no standard damage for a ranged attack: There is no standard damage for a ranged attack because the damage is a property of the weapon, not the attack made with it.


glass.

 

[glass]

I've seen several people on these boards ridicule that definition based on the assumption that a "strike" is merely the name for a subset of unarmed attacks.

No assumptions. Unarmed attack is listed in the Combat chapter under actions. Unarmed strike is listed on the weapons table in the Equipment chapter. This is not an assumption it is explicit RAW.

EDIT: Just like melee attack is an an attack in the Combat chapter, and longsword is a weapon in the Equipment chapter.


glass.

 

[Hypersmurf]

And it is- its just not the subset they're assuming. They're defining Unarmed Strike as a group of specific kinds of attack you get from the Feat IUC- Flying Mare kicks, Tiger claw strikes, or some such- martial arts maneuvers as opposed to the regular, untrained flailing about without a weapon.

Hmm? Not at all.

Regular, untrained flailing about without a weapon? Punching, kicking, headbutts? Unarmed strike. 1d3 non-lethal bludgeoning damage (assuming Medium); provoke an AoO; don't threaten an area. It's an unarmed attack.

Flying Mare kicks, Tiger claw strikes? Punching, kicking, headbutts? Unarmed strike, with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. 1d3 lethal or non-lethal bludgeoning damage (assuming Medium), more if you're a monk; don't provoke an AoO; threaten an area. It's an 'armed' unarmed attack.

Tripping someone without a weapon? Trip as an unarmed melee touch attack. It's an unarmed attack.

Wrenching someone's sword from their hand? Disarm, which requires the use of a weapon - so if you're unarmed, that weapon will generally be unarmed strike. Light weapon (-4 penalty), provokes an AoO, feats like Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) will apply to the opposed roll. It's an unarmed attack in this case.

Grabbing hold of someone? Grapple. Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) does not apply, since you're not using the weapon 'unarmed strike' to make the attack; rather, Weapon Focus (Grapple) applies to the touch attack. It's an unarmed attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The PHB defines Unarmed attack as a melee attack "with no weapon in hand," and an Unarmed Strike as a "successful blow, typically dealing non-lethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons."

How does the PHB define Unarmed Strike?

PHB p121:
Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike, which may be a punch, kick, head butt, or other type of attacl. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat (p102) to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike..

"... to attack rolls with an unarmed strike." The attack roll is made before you know whether or not an attack is successful; thus, we can see that the Glossary contains confusing information, superceded by the primary text; the term 'unarmed strike' cannot refer only to successful attacks, since we can make an attack roll with an unarmed strike. Making an attack roll after success is already determined is nonsensical, so success cannot have been determined before the attack is considered to be an unarmed strike.

Further, we can see that unarmed strikes are not restricted to monks or those with the IUS feat; anyone who is punching, kicking, or headbutting is using an unarmed strike, trained or not.

Is a punch, kick, or head butt an attack made with no weapon in hand? Absolutely; thus, it satisfies the definition of unarmed attack you provided.

An unarmed strike is an unarmed attack. Not all unarmed attacks, however, are unarmed strikes.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

How does the PHB define Unarmed strike?

In the PHB's glossary- the place where the book's official definitions are collected, it is defined as a:

"successful blow, typically dealing non-lethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons."

What you have cited is the game mechanics of an unarmed strike, not a definition.

The confusion is in the language dependent upon the defintion- that in the description of game mechanics- not within the definition itself.

An unarmed strike is an unarmed attack

There, we agree.

Not all unarmed attacks, however, are unarmed strikes.

Also correct- only the successful ones are.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In the PHB's glossary- the place where the book's official definitions are collected...

The glossary is for quick reference. Definitions are in the main body of the work.

Much as tables are subordinate to text, so is the glossary.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

According to Merriam Webster:

Glossary: A list of often difficult or specialized words with their definitions, often placed at the back of a book.

Like any dictionary, a glossary IS a reference source- a reference source on particular definitions in a book. The primary source.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Like any dictionary, a glossary IS a reference source- a reference source on particular definitions in a book. The primary source.

If I have Combat Reflexes, what game term do we use to describe the second extra melee attack I make in a round when an opponent I threaten does something that drops his guard?

What is the game term to describe the enhancement to speed granted by levels in the monk class? The increase in armor class granted by armor, by a ring of protection, by a Shield spell?

What sort of bonus do Greater Bracers of Archery provide to damage rolls?

-Hyp.