Flurry of Blows to initiate a Grapple?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Just like the unarmed strike is a subset of unarmed attacks, here (by the above logic chain) it is also a subset of special monk weapons- in this case, the subset that are actually attached to the monk.

In addition, the feat Improved Grapple requires Improved Unarmed Strike as a prereq-which is listed in the Monk section as the bonus feat that gets them started down the road of unarmed combat mastery.

 

[Starglim]

Just like the unarmed strike is a subset of unarmed attacks, here (by the above logic chain) it is also a subset of special monk weapons- in this case, the subset that are actually attached to the monk.

There's no need to climb down any logic chains, since we have a specific and explicit rule:

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).

Whatever the term might mean in other contexts, for the purpose of flurry of blows, special monk weapons are the weapons on that list within the brackets. Neither unarmed strike nor unarmed attack are included.

 

[Infiniti2000]

1) The only weapons usable with Flurry of Blows are monk weapons.

... or unarmed strikes. This is error #1.

2) Unarmed attacks are weapons (according to the equipment section & chart).

No, they are not. Unarmed strikes are listed. Unarmed attacks are not. This is error #2.

Or that they only unarmed strike while FoB?

Correct (or use a special monk weapon). This is stated quite clearly, and explicitly. Unless you can argue that you can use an "unarmed strike" to grapple, a monk cannot grapple while flurrying.

 

[mvincent]

I'm honestly not trying to derail the thread here, but the FAQ response also includes a reference to Sunder, which, according to the tables in the PHB, can only be performed as a Standard Action

The Rules of the Game also clarify sunder as an attack action (please ignore this if you do not view the issue as open to interpretation, and believe both the FAQ and RotG clarifications to be invalid):
"Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an object as a melee attack. You usually use the attack or full attack action for a sunder, but you also can sunder as an attack of opportunity."

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Lesson #300 of posting in an online thread: don't try to post a chain of logic while sleep deprived. You will make at least 1 stupid error.

I broke that rule.

2) Unarmed attacks are weapons (according to the equipment section & chart).

No, they are not. Unarmed strikes are listed. Unarmed attacks are not.

If Hyp is correct (and as I agreed) that unarmed strikes are a subset of unarmed attacks, the subset (US) has a quality that the set (UA) does not- the quality of being a weapon. This error is trivial, since step 3 builds upon my erroneous claim that UAs were weapons to claim that USs were weapons. Since they are listed as weapons, 2 & 3 collapse into one statement- US are weapons as listed in the equipment guide.

Or that they only unarmed strike while FoB?

Correct (or use a special monk weapon). This is stated quite clearly, and explicitly. Unless you can argue that you can use an "unarmed strike" to grapple, a monk cannot grapple while flurrying.

This position introduces its own problems.

Grapple is a special unarmed attack maneuver, the Feat-improved version of which requires the Feat Improved Unarmed Strike. The implication: you cannot gain the benefits of the Imp. Grapple feat with a mere unarmed attack; instead the increased training reflected in an unarmed strike must be used to gain the benefits of Imp. Grapple (if the dichotomy between unarmed attacks and unarmed strikes is indeed non-trivial).

If, then, you must use unarmed strike to gain the benefits of Imp. Grapple, and a monk can only unarmed strike while in FoB, then a Monk can ONLY gain the benefits of Imp. Grapple while using FoB.

That in turn raises the question of when other PCs who have IUC and Imp. Grapple can gain the benefit of the latter feat since they do not have FoB.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Grapple is a special unarmed attack maneuver, the Feat-improved version of which requires the Feat Improved Unarmed Strike.

True. However, the feat Improved Unarmed Strike improves more than unarmed strikes, just as the feat Deflect Arrows allows one to deflect more than arrows. Improved Unarmed Strike in fact affects all unarmed attacks, whether or not they are unarmed strikes.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Improved Unarmed Strike in fact affects all unarmed attacks, whether or not they are unarmed strikes.

How does this help?

Either:

1) a PC with IUS has all of his unarmed attacks turned into unarmed strikes- meaning the dichotomy is false- and all of a monk's unarmed attacks are unarmed strikes (contrary to what some here have proposed)...

OR

2) there is yet another category of unarmed attacks- those improved beyond mere unarmed attacks by the IUS Feat, but that are still not quite so good as to be called unarmed strikes (which is incredibly inelegant).

So, in the interaction of FoB and Imp. Grapple, you still have a conundrum.

 

[Hypersmurf]

1) a PC with IUS has all of his unarmed attacks turned into unarmed strikes- meaning the dichotomy is false- and all of a monk's unarmed attacks are unarmed strikes (contrary to what some here have proposed)...

What?

If you attack unarmed (whether it is with an unarmed strike or not), you provoke an AoO. The Improved Unarmed Strike feat removes the AoO for making an unarmed attack (whether it is with an unarmed strike or not). It doesn't turn anything into an unarmed strike.

2) there is yet another category of unarmed attacks- those improved beyond mere unarmed attacks by the IUS Feat, but that are still not quite so good as to be called unarmed strikes (which is incredibly inelegant).

"Quite so good"? Unarmed strike is not a designation of quality.

Let's say I have a feat, Improved Longsword Strike. Benefit: Attacks the character makes with a melee weapon gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls.

Does that mean my attacks with a battleaxe are improved 'beyond mere melee attacks' by the ILS feat? Well, I suppose you could phrase it that way - they have a bonus. Are they not quite so good as to be called longsword attacks? That's a bizarre question. Longsword attacks aren't 'better' than melee attacks; it's just that battleaxe attacks and longsword attacks are both melee attacks, but that doesn't make a battleaxe attack turn into a longsword attack. And the name of the feat doesn't prevent the feat affecting the battleaxe, due to the wording of the benefit.

What does the Improved Unarmed Strike feat affect? Unarmed attacks. Including but not limited to unarmed strikes. Does that make all unarmed attacks into unarmed strikes? Of course not.

-Hyp.

 

[glass]

According to the FAQ, the answer is yes, as long as the attack is made with a special monk weapon. So if you find a way to grapple with an unarmed strike or a siangham, you're fine. If you can't, you can't do it.

According to the FAQ.

And according to the PHB. Weird coincidence, that!


glass.

 

[glass]

Since Flurry of Blows is an Attack action, is it possible to use FoB to initiate a grapple? If the answer is yes and you suceed with the first FoB attack, and then suceed in the grapple check, can you use the remaining attacks to Attack the grappled character (these would be at a -4 penalty?).

As others have noted, you can't grapple on a flurry per the RAW, but some would allow it. I wouldn't.

BTW, flurry of blow is not an Attack Action, it is a full round action. I can't remember OTTOMH if it is a Full Attack action or its own FRA.


glass.