Flying off the shelves!

[Crothian]

Re: Re: Re: Flying off the shelves!

I keep hearing this "we don't represent gamers" bit, and it never fails to make me wonder where this attitude comes from. It implies that our opinions aren't worth so much because we're so completely out of touch with the "average" gamer. What is this based on? How are we so different exactly, except in that we're more focused on the game as a hobby?

I didn't realize it had been mentioned so much, I mentioned it twice in the past year, so since others have brought it up perhaps I have a point. Our opionins are worth exactly as much as any other gamers, no more no less. Actually, they might be worth a little more because ours get heard. The people in the industry might read the opinion on the message boards. My view of us is based off talking to people in the Industry and personel observation of gamers at conventions, and gaming stores. Plus, we weren't voted here, so why should we the miniority claim to represent the majority?

 

[Breakdaddy]

And I don't want to hear anymore that people buying from Amazon doesn't effect their FLGS because those numbers show otherwise.

~D

I dont care. The local guy here alienated me a long time ago with his bad attitude towards good customers. While I dont wish anything bad to happen to this store, neither shall I throw my hard earned dollars at the cur.

 

[senodam]

We had a LGS..nothing F about it at all- especially their habit of refusing to order books for customers because they weren't White Wolf or Games Workshop..strange people. Now they sell GW stuff and RC cars etc..along with BB guns. So, no longer is there a local place for us- but one of my buds runs an internet store, so I get stuff at trade + VAT, which is nice.

 

[BiggusGeekus@Work]

Amazon's rankings are based, in part, on how much you click on the Amazon page for the book. So when gaming fanboys click on the PHB page a lot it increases the PHB's Amazon rating.

And if the PHB sold 500,000 units (which it did IIRC), divide that by EN World's current membership to derive how representative we are.

 

[Mark]

Re: Re: Re: Flying off the shelves!

What is this based on? How are we so different exactly, except in that we're more focused on the game as a hobby?

It's based on sales figures. We're more in tune with the third party publisher market here on EN World then the vast majority of people who plunk down their money for D&D and third party publisher products. We're also closer to the D&D design process here than others who are also outside of the actual industry. I think this community (myself included) forgets sometimes how much more information we access than the market as a whole. It's available to anyone, just by coming here (apparently), but those who are here actually are more aware of what material is available than those who do not.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

The way I see it, there is at least some benefit in buying from big business.

Other than the discount to the consumer, buying from big businesses such as Wal-Mart is kind of like voting with your dollars.

Lets say this was kind of an experiment done by Wal-Mart. Does anyone know if you could buy the 3.0 books from them?

Ok, so Wal mart, who knows nothing about the industry, decides to put the book on thier web page. They sell like hotcakes. Lets say they sell well enough for somebody at the top of take notice.

They think: "Hey! Why don't we put this stuff in our stores?"

Then we start seeing D&D books popping up in Wal Mart stores.

This is where it gets good (and bad). The average American seems to have a state of mind that says "If Wal Mart sells it, it must be good."

Sales skyrocket. D&D becomes more mainstream. We get commercials paid for by someone other than GE. Roleplaying becomes more accepted and us gamers "come out of the closet". The D&D = Satanism myth is finally stomped out and we don't have to travel to the far corners of the earth to get our books. (For me, it is almost 40 miles to the FLGS.)

Now. I'm not saying this is all necessarily a good thing. Obviously local game shops would take a huge hit and as a side effect of it's popularity, the "gaming culture" suffers a bit as well. So it has it's ups and downs. I'd like to see the hobby become a little more mainstream, but not at the expense of quality.

I guess, like any good American, I want the best of both worlds. Unfortunately, the best of both worlds doesn't look realistic.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Flying off the shelves!

It's based on sales figures. We're more in tune with the third party publisher market here on EN World then the vast majority of people who plunk down their money for D&D and third party publisher products. We're also closer to the D&D design process here than others who are also outside of the actual industry. I think this community (myself included) forgets sometimes how much more information we access than the market as a whole. It's available to anyone, just by coming here (apparently), but those who are here actually are more aware of what material is available than those who do not.

I agree.

It's funny, and maybe it's just ego, but when you've exchanged email and message board conversation with the likes of Gary Gygax, Monte Cook, Bruce Cordell, Sean Reynolds, etc. You remember that they're human too.

Before ENWorld, I would see a rule in one of the books that looked "broken" or whatever. I'd just shrug and assume the designers knew something I didn't. Now, I read through the books and can better identify with the designers. I find myself wondering why they did this or that and how I would have done it better or worse. It's a dramatic change of perspective.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I've lost any respect for these guys. I mean, they're like.... my heroes. It's just like meeting your favorite actor. You realize that "Hey! Your human!" Then, when you see them on the big screen, you see them in a new light.

 

[Henry]

Re: Re: Flying off the shelves!

...EN World is not a good representation gaming community by a long shot. We are spoiled elitists who have access to too much info and ego's bigger the Hell Hound's RPG collection. We complain and argue with the people who actually write and publish the books, thinking that somehow we know better then they do.

Crothian, you mind if I borrow this for my collection of quotes?

As to its veracity, Mark has the right of it. How many gamers out there really care whether Paladins' warhorses are summoned or called? How many are truly upset and rejective of the new Damage Reduction issues? Or the way Disintegrate will work come July?

In my experience, very few. Of the 20 or so gamers I personally know locally, only 4 or 5 actually keep up with ENWorld, or even Wizards of the coast's site, for that matter. They buy what's at the local bookstore, they take the occasional trip to a big hobby store, and that's about it. They don't actually count the days until Supplement XYZ comes out from Green Ronin Press like I do. Most of them don't know who Green Ronin Press is! (I introduced a few to Freeport last year.)

I'm not knocking the community - I'm part of it. But I'm also realistic to know that what we say is not the pulse of Joe or Jane Gamer - it's the pulse of the diehards of the d20 community, to be sure, but not necessarily what the majority care about.

If that were true, WotC would be concentrating on "fluff" and "crunch" more evenly.

 

[Fedifensor]

I'd be happier if my Amazon order didn't say it was being delivered in March or April of 2004...that's what happens when they don't have a release date listed for a product.

And before anyone asks, I'm a stay-at-home dad with a 6 month old child, that may not be able to get to my FLGS before the first batch sells out.

 

[Mark]

Re: Re: Re: Flying off the shelves!

If that were true, WotC would be concentrating on "fluff" and "crunch" more evenly.

Yup. And that's where I think the d20 community is largely missing the boat, thus far. WotC is crunch-heavy, which leaves the door open on the other side of that scale.

When push comes to shove, d20 supplements that are crunch-heavy amount to little more than glorified house rules. Mind you, they might be very good ones, and well balanced, and well-playtested...but in the end the D&D gaming public is either unaware of them or wouldn't want them in their game. Granted there have been some worthwhile innovations and places where holes have been filled but they are few and far between, IMO.

Flavor (I prefer this word to "fluff") is where a d20 company has the chance to build a long term relationship with the D&D community at large (beyond the hallowed halls of EN World). Sticking closely to the rules that most accept, and thereby being more easily integrated into any D&D game (because it takes fewer stretches for the DM to incorporate it), is where I believe d20 publishers will find longevity.

Let's face it, there are plenty of non-D&D games that have come and gone (or merely linger on the fringes) that try to add different (some better, some worse) rules to RPGing but in the end the D&D buying public (specifically) seems to prefer that with which they are already comfortable.