Fochluchan Lyricist--opinions?

satori01 said:
Problem is Xath, your build does not qualify for the class.
the Lore abillity of the Loremaster while functionaly equivalent to the Bardic Knowledge ability is still not Bardic Knowledge.

Really? When looking up Lore in the glossary of the PHB, it specifically references Bardic Knowledge (if I remember correctly, I don't have the books). The Cloistered Cleric's lore also (I believe) defines its lore with bardic knowledge.

Going from memory here isnt the only way to learn to speak Druidic is to take a Druid level. I know Druidic is not able to be learned as a bonuses language selection. I'm not sure it is an option to learn by spending a skill point on Speak Language, though I could see a pretty good arguement re: having the Loremasters bonus language class ability be able to select Druidic.

Not only the bonus language, but the loremaster Secret in which you can instantly gain 4 ranks in any skill previously untrained, and Speak Language is a skill.

I sorta see what you are going for here, a Mystic Theurge PrC that gives bigger HD, better saves and more skill points. Thematicaly it is kinda all over the board. With Wiz and Cloistered Cleric levels the extra BAB is completely unneccesary, you will not be melee-ing, and your total BAB score will be behind anyway.

Well, by the time you hit 20th level, you'd have 3 attacks, something the normal sorc/wizard progression would never allow. And BAB is useful for spells with ranged or melee touch attacks.

The oath relaxing aspect of the class is completely wasted, as ASF will apply to the wizard side, and Cloistered Clerics are not proficient with armor if memory serves correctly. You also get no value out of the increase to Bardic music the PrC grants.

That's why I said you could break it more by taking a level of Prestige Bard from UA instead of a 2nd level of Loremaster. It's not what I'm doing, but it is possible to garner the full benefit with wizard and cleric spells. The trade for taking the level of Prestige Bard is that you never get 9th level Arcane spells, because you lose the spell level.
 

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ForceUser said:
Why is it hideously broken?

Because eventually, you end up with 3 attacks, 9th level wizard spells, and 7th level cleric spells. I guess sucking up the first 14 levels makes it less broken though.
 

Xath said:
Really? When looking up Lore in the glossary of the PHB, it specifically references Bardic Knowledge (if I remember correctly, I don't have the books). The Cloistered Cleric's lore also (I believe) defines its lore with bardic knowledge.

The Glossary doesn't mention Lore. The Loremaster description does:
Lore: At 2nd level, a loremaster gains the ability to know legends or information regarding various topics, just as a bard can with bardic knowledge. The loremaster adds her level and her Intelligence modifier to the lore check, which functions otherwise exactly like a bardic knowledge check.

So in what ways is Lore like Bardic Knowledge? It grants the ability to know legends etc like a bard (who does have Bardic Knowledge) can, and the check functions mostly like a Bardic Knowledge check.

It's similar. But is it Bardic Knowledge? No, it isn't.

Not only the bonus language, but the loremaster Secret in which you can instantly gain 4 ranks in any skill previously untrained, and Speak Language is a skill.

It's a skill... but it's a skill that specifically has no ranks. Instant Mastery can't grant 4 ranks in Speak Language, because there's no such thing.

And if you'd argue that knowing a language is the equivalent of having a rank, then the fact that you know Common means that Speak Language would not be 'a skill in which you have no ranks', and Instant Mastery would, again, not apply.

On the bright side, at least you haven't brought up using the Divine Oracle's Prescient Sense as the Evasion requirement :)

-Hyp.
 

I'm currently running on the Bard 1/Druid 3 point of building towards this PrC. So far, unless you go out of your way to tweak it's effectiveness, you are going to be sub-optimal until you hit around 12th level.

I'll report back more in a few months. ;)
 



Hypersmurf said:
The Glossary doesn't mention Lore. The Loremaster description does:
Lore: At 2nd level, a loremaster gains the ability to know legends or information regarding various topics, just as a bard can with bardic knowledge. The loremaster adds her level and her Intelligence modifier to the lore check, which functions otherwise exactly like a bardic knowledge check.

So in what ways is Lore like Bardic Knowledge? It grants the ability to know legends etc like a bard (who does have Bardic Knowledge) can, and the check functions mostly like a Bardic Knowledge check.

It's similar. But is it Bardic Knowledge? No, it isn't.

What's the difference? Class level + Intelligence still determines the same check which is rolled on the same table. I'm honestly not seeing what you see. Here's what the cloistered cleric has to say about Lore.

Lore (Ex): Thanks to long hours of study, a cloistered cleric has a wide range of stray knowledge. This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric's class level in place of the bard's level.
 

At what level are these available to this PRC?


Xath said:
Because eventually, you end up with 3 attacks, 9th level wizard spells, and 7th level cleric spells. I guess sucking up the first 14 levels makes it less broken though.
 

Xath said:
Lore (Ex): Thanks to long hours of study, a cloistered cleric has a wide range of stray knowledge. This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the cloistered cleric's class level in place of the bard's level.

See, I'd allow the Cloistered Cleric's Lore ability to qualify, because it states the ability is identical.

The Loremaster's Lore ability, on the other hand, states that the check is identical; it's not the ability itself that's the same.

The CC has an ability that is the same as Bardic Knowledge; the LM has an ability that provides the same results as a Bardic Knowledge check. By my reading, that's not close enough to qualify for a 'Bardic Knowledge' requirement... unlike the CC.

-Hyp.
 

Out of curiosity, would you allow any of bard, loremaster, or cloistered cleric levels to stack in a character that had all 3, for the purpose of bardic knowledge/lore checks?
 

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