D&D General [+] For (hypothetical) 6e: Which arcane caster class should be the "simple" one?

[Minigiant]

Elementalist:

elemental ray.
range 150ft, ranged spell attack
damage 1d8/2 levels, round up. Pick damage type from Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, Thunder

elemental burst
range 150ft, 10ft AoE, dex save
damage 1d6/2 levels, round up. Pick damage type from Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, Thunder

Elemental slam:
melee spell attack
damage 1d12/2 levels, round up. Pick damage type from Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, Thunder

Elemental blast
20ft AoE cone, dex save
damage 1d8/2 levels, round up. Pick damage type from Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, Thunder

Elemental nova
10ft radius burst from you, dex save
damage 1d10/2 levels, round up. Pick damage type from Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, Poison, Thunder

Too complex.

Defeats the purpose.

 

[Horwath]

Too complex.

Defeats the purpose.

how is it complex?
you have 5 different attacks that work pretty much the same.
just flexibility towards targets.

 

[Minigiant]

how is it complex?
you have 5 different attacks that work pretty much the same.
just flexibility towards targets.

Having to choose damage types.
Plus the extreme flexibility.

The point is that a simple arcane caster should have little choice.

You sacrifice complex mallaeble flexibility for simple raw power.

It's not a class for power gamers who power game options. You cant do that AND be simple.

 

[Tigris]

Having to choose damage types.
Plus the extreme flexibility.

The point is that a simple arcane caster should have little choice.

You sacrifice complex mallaeble flexibility for simple raw power.

It's not a class for power gamers who power game options. You cant do that AND be simple.

On top of this:

I would also say these options are too many and still not interesting.

All you do is just damage. Even martials got away from that in 5.24.


You dont need 3 different area attack and 2 single target attacks.


Having 1 area attack and 1 single target attack which do have different riders (not just damage) is enough. Maybe on higher levels a 3rd option.


Choosing between damage types just favours metagaming and makes it complicated with not much gain for beginners, but also beginners like it when their attacks do also knock an enemy prone or similar things.

 

[Remathilis]

The main problem with Warlock being the simple arcane caster is although it can be simple...

... you have to know how to make it simple and run it simply.

And knowing that defeats the purpose.

A simple Warlock must be purposely built by a veteran player or DM to be simple for someone else.

Same with Sorcerer.

Thank you. [Office.gif]

For everyone saying that the warlock is simple, they are forgetting it's the most complex class to build at level up. You have to decide if you are going gish or eb spam before you ever touch the class because that effects everything from your spells to invocations to patron. You have to plan ahead to figure out what abilities to take and understand the basic nature of combat and magic to make those choices. You can build a warlock that is a slap-dash mix of abilities you think are cool and then end up with a Warlock with armor of shadows, devil's sight, and fiendish vigor, along with toll the dead and blade ward as cantrips and not be leveraging either cantrip spam or pact weapons.

 

[Horwath]

Having to choose damage types.

that is mostly for flavor.
later, players may learn to exploit it.

Plus the extreme flexibility.

The point is that a simple arcane caster should have little choice.

You sacrifice complex mallaeble flexibility for simple raw power.

It's not a class for power gamers who power game options. You cant do that AND be simple.

it's very simple.

ranged option: single targets or clustered targets

close range: 1 melee, multiple flaking melee or clustered close opponents.

 

[Minigiant]

that is mostly for flavor.
later, players may learn to exploit it.

it's very simple.

ranged option: single targets or clustered targets

close range: 1 melee, multiple flaking melee or clustered close opponents.

Or you just choose

Acid Splash, Fire Bolt, and Shocking Grasp.

 

[tetrasodium]

how is it complex?
you have 5 different attacks that work pretty much the same.
just flexibility towards targets.

When I started running levelup§ I told more than one player who always play very little other than this warlock/sorlock something along the lines of "Eldritch blast is different in this, read the class page and pick the one you like let me know if you need help" look at me utterly bewildered on their first turn in round one of their first combat when they say they cast Eldritch blast and get asked "which one". From there I needed to stop the game so we could teach a player with months or years of weekly sessions with us under their belt what they couldn't be bothered to even look at during a character creation session zero where anyone could have stopped working with each other or the gm/players to help.

If the goal is "simple x" then the resulting class needs to be targeted at that level of player who simply doesn't care and it should be designed relatively foolproof for that player to play 1-20 rather than being built to sate the desires of advanced players who read the rules and think about when to apply the increased diversity of options that comes with those kinds of options

The 5e warlock likely fell prey to similar feature creep moving from the older version but kept carrying the original cookie cutter target player to justify complex options beyond the grasp of that player to justify the reason we've see endless hex dip pally lock bardlock and sirlock top tier builds over the last decade

§ level up warlocks get a choice in how their Eldritch blast works but need to pick one at level one

 

[tetrasodium]

Or you just choose

Acid Splash, Fire Bolt, and Shocking Grasp.

Bad idea. Give it class specific abilities tied to class level for scaling like multi attack rather than auto scaling cantrips tied to Character level and cantrips that need to serve !"simple" casters or it makes a mess for new cantrips/cantrip modifications and turns into dip candy when its own abilities combine with other classes sporting a multiclass dip into it