For Nail: Does no Dex bonus mean automatic failure on reflex saves?

[fett527]

Quote from Nail on Rugger's thread about Evard's Balack Tentacles (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63812 ):

...Tentacles are "immune to all types of damage". Why am I seeing area damage spells being centered on grappled creatures? Grappled creatures automatically fail Reflex saves? Ouch...

Is it that creatures who are grappled automatically fail reflex saves period or grappled creatures lose their dex bonus and if you lose your dex bonus you automatically fail reflex saves? I have been checking out the SRD and haven't found the answer for this so any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Grappled people don't automatically fail reflex saves.

The excitement of the Black Tentacles is not that people fail reflex saves any more when they are grappled, it's that the tentacles don't take damage from, for example, a wall of fire.

So you can run a wall of fire through a field of tentacles, and then people will have to escape the grappling before they can stop taking damage every round from the wall of fire.

-Frank

 

[Aaron2]

I'd say no. You lose your Dex bonus when attacked by an invisible creature. Just cause an invisible creature is lurking about doesn't mean you can't dodge any fireballs. I think that there are many cases of losing dex bonus that depend on the attacking creature (hidden, invis, etc), so that can't be a criteria used universally. Besides wouldn't all traps catch everyone flat-footed?

Actually, where does it say that grappled dudes auto-fail relfex saves? Was this changed for 3.5?

Aaron

 

[fett527]

Nail,
Can you respond as to why you made the comment. I know it was posed as a question, was it intended to be a question or statement? Just want to clarify.

I never thought you would automatically fail until this comment put a question in my mind. I would just assume you do not get your dex bonus to the save.

 

[Nail]

Nail,
Can you respond as to why you made the comment. I know it was posed as a question, was it intended to be a question or statement? Just want to clarify.

I never thought you would automatically fail until this comment put a question in my mind. I would just assume you do not get your dex bonus to the save.

Sorry; it was question. Certainly not a statement of fact. But still.....(checks SRD)....surely the tentacles could pin an opponent? Again, I'm not sure, just thinking out-loud....or on paper...or whatever. If the Tentacles could pin, then no Ref save, I believe........

....Hmmm. Nope. The tentacles just do a grapple check each round to do damage. No pinning.

Nonetheless, making those Ref saves with no Dex bonus might be more difficult.

 

[Nail]

My internet connection crashed for a moment. Sorry for the double post.

 

[Rugger]

Methinks this is one of those situations where rules and reality collide.

Grappled folks seem like they shouldn't get Reflex saves...

But thats too mean. Therefore folks almost always retain the ability to make saves.

But any good Rat Bastard DM would rule no saves allowed. Muahahahahah!

-Rugger
"I LaughEvilly!"

 

[Mista Collins]

Well if you want to take a reality stance on this question. if I were to wrestle with someone and someone then tried to throw something at me, I would be able to move around a bit and still try and dodge it, or does this not seem logical. I know that even though I am techically "grappled" I still have parts of my body free to try and move out of the way of this object, or let's say a bucket of water (real life example of area of effect). I think this would represent the base reflex save modifier. Thus still providing someone with a reflex save to move out of the way. Granted I wouldn't get my dex because I would still be wrestling and not capable of fully getting out of the way, but I am confident in my skills as an individual that if I was in a situation where I was grappled, and someone did something requiring me to make a reflex save, I could do it (just not to my full ability). Can anyone cast fireball in real life so I can give this a try..

 

[Geoff Watson]

You get Reflex saves under any condition.

I'd rule that you can't use Evasion or Improved Evasion (as you need to be able to move freely).

Geoff.

 

[Artoomis]

You get Reflex saves under any condition.

I'd rule that you can't use Evasion or Improved Evasion (as you need to be able to move freely).

Geoff.

I think that you either get a Reflex Save + Evasion or Neither.

...As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion...