For Nail - The Psion

[Testament]

OK, I must be missing something. What's so hot about Dispel Psionics?

 

[Thanee]

The problem with Dispel Psionics is, that it can be augmented to a +20 dispel check at 10th level.

You make a dispel check (1d20 + your manifester level, maximum +10)

For every additional power point you spend, the bonus on your dispel check increases by 2 (to a maximum bonus of +20 for a 5-point expenditure).

This is because it scales automatically to +10 (just like the spell) and in addition can be further augmented for another +10.

But as I said, I believe most DMs will not allow that as written, because it's really unreasonable.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Jackelope King]

Of course, divine casters are not really relevant here.

So, the availability of healing "magic" can only be seen as a big advantage!

Probably because psionics is extremely weak compared to divine magic.

Summoned monsters cannot compare with astral constructs at all, when it comes to combat ability, they are also immune to Protection from Evil and other summon-protections, since they are not summoned. Summons have the advantage of minor magical abilities, of course. While the magical abilities are certainly nice, the combat ability is more powerful IMHO. But it's not that far off, so about even seems to fit.

The combat ability is nothing when you can summon something with good spells. And compare a greater earth elemental to an 8th level astral construct: Construct has many fewer HP, but a higher AC. Construct has a slightly higher attack bonus, but the elemental has much higher damage. The construct is smaller, which is sometimes an advantage and sometimes a disadvantage. The construct has DR 15/magic while the elemental has the much better DR 10/-. The elemental has huge advantages from its feat list (allowing it to naturally plow through hordes of weaker foes with cleave/great cleave and giving it more tactical options with Improved bull rush and improved sunder. The construct can get his hands on some nice abilities from the high-level construction menu, but he only gets 1 choice. He'd be hard-pressed to be as durable as the elemental, and if he made this choice he would be weak compared to the earth elemental's earth glide mobility. If he went for instead for extra damage from something like rend or crowd control via concusion, he'll be weak in every other way.

This is irrelevant. While it certainly is a disadvantage for psions in general (also see below), it has nothing to do with the powers themselves. If you say, that teleportation magic is better, since most psions have to spend a feat to get it, then you also have to say, that, for example, Astral Construct is like five times better than any summon spell, because it's nine spells in one, a sorcerer can never hope to match this kind of scaling goodness with Summon Monster. We do not do that, so we do not do the other as well.

It is not irrelevant since we're talking about psions here, unless I missed a moving of the goal posts. And dimension door is the same in both the XPH and PHB. The only difference is that a psion can augment the power. Well guess what? An arcane caster can one-up the manifesters and quicken their dimension door. Metamagic feats are a huge advantage for arcane casters that rarely get mentioned.

While arcanists usually cannot use it at all, unless they have a base of operation, yes. Well, unless they get Greater Scrying, of course.

All an arcanist needs is a mirror, which can easily be carried in a portable hole or similar magic item. An arcanist can spend 1000 gp and be able to scry whenever he wants two levels later because he can get teleport without spending a feat. But at level 4 the poor guy will have to resort to using dang ol' rope trick if he wants to use the spell in the middle of an adventure. A psion can... oh wait! A psion never gets anything near the "save point" power that is rope trick or similar shelter spells. If he wants creature comforts he needs to either be a nomad or he needs to spend a feat to be able to teleport home.

Power Words are weak. Otto's Irresistable Dance is pretty good, tho.

But how about really strong enchantments like Mass Suggestion and Dominate Monster?

Those are available to psions of *moderate* level! Big advantage for the psions there.

And these are entirely trumped by a first level arcane spell called protection from magic. Psions have to wait until level 7 spells with personal mind blank.

Mind Blank isn't really a big factor. Only at higher level play (much higher and much more rare than True Seeing, which you nicely didn't mention and which does foil all illusions).

So, how does it look without mind blanking everything away? That's more important, I think.

Also arcane Invisibility is foiled by many abilities and even low-level spells/powers (starting at 1st). It's still a *very* good spell, of course, and yes, also better than the psionics "equivalent".

Without mindblanking it still lacks the versatility of illusions. There are no powers which compare to the shadow spells in terms of versatility. There are no psion powers which are so multi-purpose as silent image. And true seeing at high levels is still rarer than mind blank because mind blank is an all-day, passive buff. True seeing is active, as you have to cast the spell whenever you want to use it, it only lasts a few minutes, and you have to know that you are dealing with illusions or else you just wasted the spell.

Which numbers would that be? You hopefully do not speak of any of those silly damage comparisons using single spells to compare the total damage dice in a day, which say absolutely nothing about the actual power there.

The "silly" ones where arcanists use metamagic feats over a series of several encounters and more than double the damage potential of a psionic character. Because as I mentioned before, metapsionic feats are god-awful compared to metamagic feats, a huge advantage for arcane casters.

That is something I actually do not agree with. Save-or-die is great during moderate to higher levels, but the saves outrun the DCs quickly and there are some really effective countermeasures out there (i.e. Death Ward).

Damage is always relevant, if you can deal enough of it.
Remember, that you are usually not alone, and the fighter is dealing damage, too.

If a save-or-die spell fails, you have achieved nothing.
If a damage spell deals half damage, you still have done something meaningful.

Anyways... the king of high-level play are no-save disabling spells/powers, of course.
Without really looking, I'd say that arcanists do have an edge there, tho.

And damage is always a cure away, which means that dealing enough of it is questionable at best. If a save-or-die spell succeeds, you've just won the encounter. If a damage spell deals half damage, you've forced the BBEG to spend resources healing himself. And yes, no-save powers are obviously the kings at high level, and by your own admission arcanists have the advantage here.

Yes, psionics are definitely lacking in the area of party buffing.
Utility, maybe slightly, but not much, they just have different utility powers, but also good ones.

And most of those good utility spells are discipline spells.

In general, I totally agree, tho (always have and also always stated that myself), that psionics do not have the breadth which arcane spells cover. This is, of course, because there are far more spells out there and most books include spells, but only few have powers (and even then only very few of them). Maybe there will be some book expanding that, I don't know. Right now, it's an advantage for the arcanists for sure.

Agreed.

However, one thing should not be forgotten here, both the sorcerer and the psion have a very limited amount of known spells/powers. This number is in the end the one that is relevant, and there this advantage for the sorcerer (having a better base to choose from), while still present, lessens a lot! Especially once you look at the spell/power levels, which are at any given time most relevant, that is the current highest level spells/powers *known*. The psion always has a HUGE advantage in terms of breadth then. Often knowing four high level powers instead of one spell. That is a tactical breadth the sorcerer cannot match.

I'll call bull on this. I have never once in my entire time playing 3rd Edition seen a sorcerer not pick shadow evocation/conjuration spells. These spells give the sorcerer access (with just two spells) to two schools of magic. That is a versatility psions can never match.

I am actually fairly sure, that these trade-offs (not only the lack of breadth in the power base (so remember what I have written in the above paragraph) and weaker party-friendly powers (I would even consider this an extra trade-off, because it is a fairly important one), also the augmentation cost (no free scaling, which is the BIG trade-off, of course) and other mostly minor stuff) are not enough, not even close, to balance the immense advantages psions have over sorcerers (much more "effective spells known" (lots of augmentable powers include higher level versions, also includes the incredible advantage of freely choosing energy type, a rather big tactical advantage), much more high level powers known at any given level and faster power level progression (huge advantage at all levels, from 3rd+), no caps (which keeps the lower level powers viable, unlike most of the lower level arcane spells), quicker power output and thus always able to create the full effect of their PP in a day (huge advantage, especially at higher levels), spontaneous Quicken (plus Schism, which can further improve this output), free DC scaling (auto-heighten, when using a lower level power as a higher level power), no VSM components (auto-still/silent/eschew materials (arcane casters need epic feats for that!), also near grapple immunity, the bane of arcane casters at low-mid levels, also Silence immunity), bonus feats (those are needed to get some of the discipline lists powers, tho, thus are not that big an advantage, of course, they mostly diminish that disadvantage to some degree), better skills (class list and Int instead of the weaker Cha as caster/manifester ability), almost unaffected by Globe spells , and so on). Quite a list.

They have fewer spells known careof the shadow spells and their actual spell lists (I know you love to claim that augmentation means a power is more like fifty powers, but this just doesn't hold up in actual gameplay). Spontaneous quicken with feats just does not happen... psionic focus prevents this from being anything more than once per encounter. Schism is like fighting with a big gun in one hand and a pop gun in the other. No VSM is balanced because everyone knows when a psion manifests power everyone smells/hears/sees it. Quicker power output = quicker power burnout. "Free DC Scaling" only effects a small number of spells and (guess what?) you have to pay for it. I get the impression from your arguments that you have never once played a psion, because you seem to have some very, very simplistic views on how it actually works in real gameplay. In a real game, a psion who goes for the gusto and blows out all his powers points quickly learns that this is a bad idea (from later encounters where he's weak or when he doesn't have the ability to manifest a helpful power later in a non-combat encounter). I have seen two of the "big bad psions" described in this thread. Within two sessions they had learned that blowing through power points in one encounter just doesn't work (and this was after sessions with a single combat encounter). Real games with psionics alongside traditional casters just don't have the problems you describe. In fact, high-level play with psions taking the place of traditional casters tends to make things more balanced since high-level spells tend to out-muscle high-level powers (by your own admission).

Psions have damage on their side (a questionable as usual accusation, but one I will conceed is moot). Arcanists have everything else Creature comforts? Arcanists. Utility? Arcanists. Illusions? Arcanists. Necromancy? Big time arcanists. Enchantment, conjuration, and abjuration? Those are pretty close. Evocation? Fine. Let the psions have it.

One out of eight schools of magic give psions an argueable strength in, and it is widely considered to be among the weakest schools.

You're right. Having some strength in one weak field makes the class completely broken. How could I have thought otherwise?

 

[Vurt]

Personally I always thought psions were balanced primarily against specialist wizards. (i.e. Barred schools versus good spells on discipline lists, similar number of pp/equivalent spells per day, bonus feats at the same levels, etc.) Comparing it to a sorcerer all the time seems to be an apples and oranges thing. Perhaps the wizard isn't perfectly balanced against a sorcerer. I seem to recall a multitude of threads, back in the day, on the very subject.

So why are we comparing it to a sorcerer? Is it just the spontaneous casting thing?

Cheers,
Vurt

 

[Ovinomancer]

2) Spells scale for free, powers don't. A sorcerer gets a scaled effect with his spells based on his caster level, a psion gets scaled effects on his powers based on how many points he spends. No one posting complaints about psionics seems to realize how big a difference this is. Example: Energy Ray vs Scorching Ray.

Energy Ray, ML 3, 2nd level power equivalent = 3d6+3
Scorching Ray, CL 3, 2nd level spell = 4d6

Energy Ray, ML 7, 4th level power equivalent = 7d6+7
Sorching Ray, CL 7, 2nd level spell = 8d6
Empowered Scorching Ray, CL 7, 4th level spell equivalent = 12d6

Energy Ray, ML 11, 6th level power equivalent = 11d6+11
Sorching Ray, CL 11, 2nd level spell = 12d6
Twin Spell Scorching Ray, 6th level spell equivalent = 24d6

Energy Ray, ML 20, MORE THAN 10th LEVEL POWER EQUIVALENT = 20d6+20
5 Scorching Rays, CL 20, 10 total spell levels = *60d6*
Twin Spell Split Ray Empowered Scorching Ray, CL 20, 10th level spell equivalent = 48d6

This example has some pretty serious flaws. I will limit my discussion to the last block for conciseness.

First is that scorching ray does a MAXIMUM of 16d6, not 60d6. Unless the poster intended to represent 5 *seperate* scroching ray spells, in which case you are discussing the 1 round damage output or energy blast (20d6+20) vs the 5 rounds necessary to achieve the 60d6 result from scorching ray. This type of comparision is logically flawed in that you are providing results based on different circumstances. The better example is the twin spell split ray empowered scorching ray, which, while I do not have current access to those feats, feasably creates a 48d6 cumulative damage in one go. At the cost of 3 feats.

The second fallacy in this argument involves the potential reistance of the target. I will dispense with obvious advantage of enery ray (namely that you may choose your energy type on the fly), and assume that a resistance of 10, 20, and 30 apply to both effects. At a resistance of 10, energy ray will deal 20d6+10 points of damage (an average of 100 damage). The Twin Split Empowered (TSE) Scorching Ray, however, will do 48d6-80 points of damage (136 damage). Advantage Acrane caster. At 20 resistance, the energy ray will do 20d6 damage (average 90), and the TSE Scorching Ray will do 48d6-160 (an average of 56 damage). Advantage to the Psion. At reistance 30 (which, mind you, is available to arcane and divine casters at 12th level) the energy ray does 20d6-10 damage (80 average) and the TSE Scorching Ray is reduced to 48d6-240 (average damage -24, *maximum* damage 48). The arcane caster is now left sucking his thumb while the Psion continues to blast unabated.

I do not stand in either camp in this discussion. I don't have psionics IMC because I do not want to deal with the extra work involved in learning the ruleset. Mostly because I am lazy and like my game the way it is. I do, however, have a problem with faulty logic. This arguement looked OK on the surface, but failed the grade when closely scrutinized.

My 2c.

 

[KarinsDad]

I agree with most of what you said, but you have a few mistakes here:

The "silly" ones where arcanists use metamagic feats over a series of several encounters and more than double the damage potential of a psionic character. Because as I mentioned before, metapsionic feats are god-awful compared to metamagic feats, a huge advantage for arcane casters.

I do not understand this at all. Metapsionic feats are just as powerful as metamagic feats. In fact, metapsionic feats can be even more potent than metamagic feats by using Overchannel/Talented.

For example, Empowered Fireball is a 5th level spell that requires a 9th level Wizard.

A 9th level Psion can Empower a 7D6+7 Fire Energy power that is exactly equal in average damage to the 9D6 Empowered Fireball. However, the same 9th level Psion could Overchannel that to Empowered 9D6+9.

But even without Overchanneling it, the power levels for the two meta feats are basically equal.

Spontaneous quicken with feats just does not happen... psionic focus prevents this from being anything more than once per encounter.

Psionic Meditation allows psions to use their psionic focus multiple times per combat. My 8th level psion uses her psionic focus 1 to 6 times per combat, mostly for Psionic Weapon.

Schism is like fighting with a big gun in one hand and a pop gun in the other.

Incorrect. Schism is like cheap auto-quicken every round. The 6 level difference is identical to the Quicken Power feat, the main differences are that you do not have to use up your psionic focus to accomplish it and multiple quickened powers via Schism are cheaper.

Plus, it is hard to disrupt any power manifested with Schism. Plus, Schism is an additional protection versus mind affecting powers/spells. Plus, if you use Schism on more than one round, it decreases the cost of your "quickened schismed powers" (in other words, 7 PP for Schism and three 1 PP Schismed Entangling Ectoplasms cost 10 PP total, 3 Quickened Entangling Ectoplasms costs 21 PP total).

The only advantage Quicken has over Schism is that the manifester level for Schism is 6 levels lower. However, there are a lot of powers like Entangling Ectoplasm where this does not make a difference.

Schism is better for some non-offensive powers. Quicken is better for offensive powers that have DCs or for powers where range or duration is a factor.

Effectively, taking Schism is like taking a power to replace the Quicken feat (and then some).

No VSM is balanced because everyone knows when a psion manifests power everyone smells/hears/sees it.

This does not have to be correct. Psionic displays can be totally muted with a Concentration roll. Not only that, a psion can use up his psionic focus to guarantee a Take 15 Concentration roll to do this.

 

[Thanee]

Probably because psionics is extremely weak compared to divine magic.

Do you honestly think that divine magic is stronger than psionics?
Do you also think that divine magic is stronger than arcane magic?

The combat ability is nothing when you can summon something with good spells.

There is very little in the summon monster list, which has good spells, tho.

And compare a greater earth elemental to an 8th level astral construct.

Yep, the greater earth elemental isn't much weaker. It doesn't have the additional flexibility with the package stuff, but then again, you can summon other monsters, of course. The better AC probably balances out with the lower hit points. A low AC is not good, when even the 3rd and 4th attacks hit regularily then.

At that high levels, the summoned stuff is mostly ignored, anyways.
That's also true for the constructs, of course.

It is not irrelevant since we're talking about psions here, unless I missed a moving of the goal posts.

Yeah, it's not irrelevant for the psion, of course. It's just irrelevant to comparing the spells and powers.

I'm well aware of the disadvantage with the discipline lists, but I would consider that as a seperate (and pretty big) disadvantage and not mix it in with this comparison.

And dimension door is the same in both the XPH and PHB. The only difference is that a psion can augment the power. Well guess what? An arcane caster can one-up the manifesters and quicken their dimension door.

Sorcerers cannot quicken.
Wizards need to prepare that as an 8th level spell.
Psions can do it, whenever they need it.

Metamagic feats are a huge advantage for arcane casters that rarely get mentioned.

For wizards: No, they are not. Metamagic is quite commonly bashed for being almost useless for them.

For sorcerers: Metamagic is good, but it costs them feats, of which they do not have many. It does not really make their spells much more effective, it just helps them keep their lower level spells useful. With metamagic the higher level slots get burned up even quicker, tho.

Psions gain most of the advantages, sorcerers gain through metamagic, for free (no feat cost, that is), anyways. And they can use metapsionics as well, all they need in addition is to spend one of their bonus feats on Psionic Meditation. Sure, the interaction with augmentation and metapsionic cost makes them a little less effective than their magical counterparts, but they do cost less to use, too.

And these are entirely trumped by a first level arcane spell called protection from evil.

So? Does everyone in your games have this spell running?
Besides, Suggestion is unaffected by that spell.

Antimagic Field also negates all magic and psionics, so I guess they are just glorified commoners then.

Seriously, countermeasures are good, but how often one encounters them is much more important!

There are no powers which compare to the shadow spells in terms of versatility.

Ok, the shadow spells are good. They have their limits, and the lowest versions are not really great, but all in all they are good spells for sure. At least the conjuration one. The evocation one is pretty bad, actually.

And true seeing at high levels is still rarer than mind blank because mind blank is an all-day, passive buff.

There are plenty creatures with permanent True Seeing and rather few with Mind Blank. Only arcanists, psions and very few clerics have that.

No, I don't think you would encounter Mind Blank more often than True Seeing, unless you play into epic levels, maybe.

The "silly" ones where arcanists use metamagic feats over a series of several encounters and more than double the damage potential of a psionic character.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

And damage is always a cure away, which means that dealing enough of it is questionable at best. If a save-or-die spell succeeds, you've just won the encounter.

Hey, I agree, that having a save-or-die spell succeed is better, but that simply doesn't happen very often at higher levels. And wasting actions isn't exactly good at higher levels.

If a damage spell deals half damage, you've forced the BBEG to spend resources healing himself.

Resources *and* actions. If I manage to do that, the BBEG is already toast!

I'll call bull on this.

Who's Bull?

I have never once in my entire time playing 3rd Edition seen a sorcerer not pick shadow evocation/conjuration spells. These spells give the sorcerer access (with just two spells) to two schools of magic.

Well, yes, but they are still pretty limited and you waste a higher level slot for a lower level effect.

The versatility is great for a sorcerer, because they have so little spells known, but they are not nearly as effective as the real spells.

Anyways, I was speaking of high level spells/powers not low level spells/powers.
The shadow spells give you more low level spells, but not more high level ones.

They have fewer spells known careof the shadow spells and their actual spell lists (I know you love to claim that augmentation means a power is more like fifty powers, ...

Roughly.

...but this just doesn't hold up in actual gameplay).

No? So psions in actual gameplay never augment lower level powers then?

Psions in actual gameplay do not have (for example) at 10th level a total of four true 5th level powers, where the sorcerer has only one? And at 11th level then an additional 6th level power for the sorcerer's second 5th level spell? And in addition to that a couple of lower level powers, which can be augmented to have the effect of a spell of that level (note: I'm only speaking of powers, which can be augmented to become a higher version of the same spell/power, like Astral Construct, for example)?

Spontaneous quicken with feats just does not happen... psionic focus prevents this from being anything more than once per encounter. Schism is like fighting with a big gun in one hand and a pop gun in the other.

-6 levels is not that bad, once you have a certain level (mid to high). Schism and Quicken are both high level abilities, of course. Makes no sense to use them at 8th or 10th level, so much for sure.

No VSM is balanced because everyone knows when a psion manifests power everyone smells/hears/sees it.

Right, that's about the same.

Quicker power output = quicker power burnout.

And here I must really ask... do you think, that this is a balancing factor?

Would you allow a sorcerer to simply cast two spells a round then?
That's also quicker output and quicker burnout!

"Free DC Scaling" only effects a small number of spells and (guess what?) you have to pay for it.

Not specifically, it's like using Heighten Spell, you also pay for it by using a higher level slot, but you do not get an additional effect then. Psionics give the additional effect *and* the DC.

I get the impression from your arguments that you have never once played a psion, because you seem to have some very, very simplistic views on how it actually works in real gameplay.

How do you come to that conclusion? Simplistic view?

In a real game, a psion who goes for the gusto and blows out all his powers points quickly learns that this is a bad idea (from later encounters where he's weak or when he doesn't have the ability to manifest a helpful power later in a non-combat encounter).

Maybe you did not get to the base of what I'm saying.

Just to make sure: I do not say, that a psion should always blow out PP as there was no tomorrow! I just say, that the psion *can* do so, if the situation requires it.

Listing all the possible ways to use the PP over a day would require waaay too much time and space.

I have seen two of the "big bad psions" described in this thread.

*puzzled look*

What psions are you talking about?

Real games with psionics alongside traditional casters just don't have the problems you describe.

Maybe you just didn't notice them?
Maybe your campaign style does match the few, that make psions balanced with arcanists?

In fact, high-level play with psions taking the place of traditional casters tends to make things more balanced since high-level spells tend to out-muscle high-level powers (by your own admission).

Nah, I just said, that arcane spells have the edge at the no-save category.
However, the ability to manifest a multiple of high level effects is much stronger IMHO.

Psions have damage on their side (a questionable as usual accusation, but one I will conceed is moot).

Not damage... effect! They generate more effect in an average day (as explained in a post above).

Damage is just one form of effect.

Arcanists have everything else Creature comforts? Arcanists. Utility? Arcanists. Illusions? Arcanists. Necromancy? Big time arcanists. Enchantment, conjuration, and abjuration? Those are pretty close. Evocation? Fine. Let the psions have it.

Now you make a big jump here.

The spells from those schools favor the arcanists over the psions with their powers. Yes.
But that is only, if you look at the complete lists. Those never come into play effectively.

The point of comparison is the sorcerer, and with the extremely limited spell selection the sorcerer cannot make decent use of that advantage!

The wizard can, sure, but the wizard has no spontaneous casting ability.

You're right. Having some strength in one weak field makes the class completely broken. How could I have thought otherwise?

You have totally not understood what I am saying, if that is the conclusion you draw.

I think my "simplistic view" is just too complex for people to understand...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Someone]

I agree with most of what you said, but you have a few mistakes here:



I do not understand this at all. Metapsionic feats are just as powerful as metamagic feats. In fact, metapsionic feats can be even more potent than metamagic feats by using Overchannel/Talented.

For example, Empowered Fireball is a 5th level spell that requires a 9th level Wizard.

A 9th level Psion can Empower a 7D6+7 Fire Energy power that is exactly equal in average damage to the 9D6 Empowered Fireball. However, the same 9th level Psion could Overchannel that to Empowered 9D6+9.

Minor nitpick: said psion would be also taking 3d8 damage, since he would have to spend his focus on the Talented and Empower feats, and can´t use Talented at all if he´s using Energy Ball, since it´s a 4th level power.

Unless you´re using Psicrystal Containment, and some power of 3rd level or less. In that case, the psion is using 5 feats: overchannel, talented, psicrystal affinity, psicrystal containment, and empower. Probably Expanded knowledge, too, if he´s not a Kineticist, versus the Empower feat the wizard or sorcerer is using.

 

[KarinsDad]

Minor nitpick: said psion would be also taking 3d8 damage, since he would have to spend his focus on the Talented and Empower feats, and can´t use Talented at all if he´s using Energy Ball, since it´s a 4th level power.

Unless you´re using Psicrystal Containment, and some power of 3rd level or less. In that case, the psion is using 5 feats: overchannel, talented, psicrystal affinity, psicrystal containment, and empower. Probably Expanded knowledge, too, if he´s not a Kineticist, versus the Empower feat the wizard or sorcerer is using.

Energy Ball, Energy Missile, Energy Cone, and Energy Current are the 4 Energy offensive powers that are Kineticist discipline specific. Of these, only Energy Ball and Energy Current do damage when using Overchannel/Talented.

But, there are other options.

You can use any of the other 8 Energy offensive powers without using a feat: Energy Bolt, Energy Burst, Energy Push, Energy Ray, Energy Retort, Energy Stun, Energy Wall, or Energy Wave.

So, you can use any of these with Empower Power and do more average damage (for fire and cold energy) starting at level 10 (i.e. Empowered 8D6+8 > Empowered 10D6). The exception to this is Energy Wave which cannot be used until level 13.

With Overchannel and Talented for those Energy powers less than level 4, you could increase this damage even more starting at level 6 (i.e. Overchanneled Empowered 5D6+5 > Empowered 6D6) and take no damage.

With Overchannel and Vigor for any of these Energy powers, regardless of their level, you could increase this damage even more starting at level 6 (i.e. Overchanneled Empowered 5D6+5 > Empowered 6D6) and take no damage (or at higher level for those powers above level 3).


So with two feats (Overchannel and Empower) and two powers (Vigor and Energy X), you can be more effective than most arcane spell casters in this area. You do not have to be a Kineticist or use up an Expanded Knowledge feat to get there.

But, it will cost you some PP and time (you have to pump up with Vigor before you can Overchannel or you will take real damage).

 

[Someone]

Energy Ball, Energy Missile, Energy Cone, and Energy Current are the 4 Energy offensive powers that are Kineticist discipline specific. Of these, only Energy Ball and Energy Current do damage when using Overchannel/Talented.

But, there are other options.

You can use any of the other 8 Energy offensive powers without using a feat: Energy Bolt, Energy Burst, Energy Push, Energy Ray, Energy Retort, Energy Stun, Energy Wall, or Energy Wave.

So, you can use any of these with Empower Power and do more average damage (for fire and cold energy) starting at level 10 (i.e. Empowered 8D6+8 > Empowered 10D6). The exception to this is Energy Wave which cannot be used until level 13.

With Overchannel and Talented for those Energy powers less than level 4, you could increase this damage even more starting at level 6 (i.e. Overchanneled Empowered 5D6+5 > Empowered 6D6) and take no damage.

With Overchannel and Vigor for any of these Energy powers, regardless of their level, you could increase this damage even more starting at level 6 (i.e. Overchanneled Empowered 5D6+5 > Empowered 6D6) and take no damage (or at higher level for those powers above level 3).


So with two feats (Overchannel and Empower) and two powers (Vigor and Energy X), you can be more effective than most arcane spell casters in this area. You do not have to be a Kineticist or use up an Expanded Knowledge feat to get there.

But, it will cost you some PP and time (you have to pump up with Vigor before you can Overchannel or you will take real damage).

It was a minor nitpick, just to show that in your previous post you were really saying "metapsionic feats are superior to metamagic feats if you also use feats A, B, C and D!", wich should be kinda obvious. The argument hasn´t changed a lot, since now instead of feats A, B, C and D it´s Feat A, power B and time to buff. I mentioned energy ball only because you were using fireball in yor post, and that was the closest in terms of shape, and anyway, when it comes to brokenness energy burst (who would take that power anyway?) is rarely mentioned; it´s energy missile what takes all the spotlight.

(by the way, I´m of the opinion that energy missile should be errataed, too, but´s that goes out of the point discussed)

I should also mention that why the arcanist should limit himself to one metamagic feat? If we´re speaking of damage dealing, he can slap as many feats he can or own with metamagic rods (maximize, empower, twin...) while the psion, even overchanneling, has to balance them with augmentation, can´t use more than 2 (and that´s using 2 feats) or use them more than once in a fight unless he´s taking again more feats.