For Nail - The Psion

[KarinsDad]

Whaaaa? Really? Tell me how, exactly. (Without using the "Globe of Invul." spells. Those are weak and little used IME.)

Heck, list all of the ways a non-psion can "be immune" to Astral Constructs. I'd love to hear about it. Really.

Astral Constructs have higher ACs, better abilities, and higher attack rolls than a similar summoned monster. It is just flat out a superior power.

So, there are two spells that makes the arcane spell caster and his allies totally immune to Astral Constructs. But, you don't think this is powerful or useful enough, so you need more ways for them to be immune?

On the other hand, psions have NO ways to be immune to the arcane Summoned Monster counterpart. But, you do not consider this a weakness?

 

[Nail]

So, there are two spells that makes the arcane spell caster and his allies totally immune to Astral Constructs. But, you don't think this is powerful or useful enough, so you need more ways for them to be immune?

Absolutely. Summoned monster protections are simply stronger and easier, hands down.

The globe spells have a fundamental flaw: They are immobile. As you (and many, many others) have argued countless times, mobility is key to a spell-caster's health.

...and you are arguing that all of the caster's allies need to cram themselves into an immobile 10'r globe as well? That seems......sub-optimal.

You've played a psion, you've seen others in combat, and you may have read the Storyhours about Psions here on these boards: How many times have you actually seen a Globe spell used against a Psion?

 

[Thanee]

Yep, that globe-argument really has a lot of flaws.

It can be a great protection in the right situation, but that's only rarely the case.
And spellcasters are still more hindered by the globes than psions are.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

...and really, I'm trying to think of ways to make it work. I presently DM a Psi(shaper) 15....and the campaign has no house rules to speak of.

 

[KarinsDad]

Absolutely. Summoned monster protections are simply stronger and easier, hands down.

The globe spells have a fundamental flaw: They are immobile. As you (and many, many others) have argued countless times, mobility is key to a spell-caster's health.

Only if he is not protected where he is. For example, a Wizard using Projected Image from a safe location would probably not want to be very mobile at that time.

...and you are arguing that all of the caster's allies need to cram themselves into an immobile 10'r globe as well? That seems......sub-optimal.

Well, that is 12 squares. Not exactly cramming if most area effect spells cannot get you.

You've played a psion, you've seen others in combat, and you may have read the Storyhours about Psions here on these boards: How many times have you actually seen a Globe spell used against a Psion?

Never.

But, the fact that we rarely run into Wizards or Sorcerers in our game (our DM apparently does not want to take out the time to invest so much effort into creating one that we will wipe out in battle number one or battle number two) does not mean that the option is unavailable.

 

[Thanee]

Never.

But, the fact that we rarely run into Wizards or Sorcerers in our game (our DM apparently does not want to take out the time to invest so much effort into creating one that we will wipe out in battle number one or battle number two) does not mean that the option is unavailable.

Your party is also 7th level still, right? Then globes are barely available in the lesser version.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

Let me just interject this: I really am here for discussion, and I do appreciate what you bring to the table, KarinsDad.

Only if he is not protected where he is. For example, a Wizard using Projected Image from a safe location would probably not want to be very mobile at that time.

Err? Project Image is used even less than the Globes IME. YMMV, of course. Still, I'm not sure it's kosher to bring in yet another spell to bolster the supposed Astral-Construct-Immunity spell.

Well, that is 12 squares. Not exactly cramming if most area effect spells cannot get you.

Uhmmmm? Being in a 10' radius virtually assures that you will be a target of an AoE spell. Are you claiming that there are no such spells above 3rd (or 4th) level?

The Globe spells are not memorized because they are weak.

Even so: is there some other defence against Astral Constructs that is comparable to Protection/Evil? That would be: 1st level spell, mobile, lasts 1 min/level.

Answer: Nope. Not even close.

Never.

But, the fact that we rarely run into Wizards or Sorcerers in our game (our DM apparently does not want to take out the time to invest so much effort into creating one that we will wipe out in battle number one or battle number two) does not mean that the option is unavailable.

I'm sorry your DM doesn't do that. BTW, when one of my groups went through the 4th thru 7th level range, I didn't hit them with many Sor/Wiz either. It's not a "sweet-spot" for them, as NPC enemies.

Like you, I've not seen Globes used against psions. Ever. That should tell you something.

 

[DreamChaser]

Oh, please. Psionic Dominate is in almost all situations completely superior to Dominate Person.

This is the part that would traditionally be followed by the word "because..." and then an explanation.

Really, I love debate but flinging unsupported statements around does not make a debate. I think I agree with you, but I'm not sure (about the Dominate issue, not about psions as a whole so far).

DC

 

[Nail]

This is the part that would traditionally be followed by the word "because..." and then an explanation.

As a guess I would say "the incredible flexibility"!

It starts as a 4th level power, but can grow to whatever you have the inclination and capacity for.

Strangely enough, our party's psion doesn't go for this type of power.

 

[DreamChaser]

As a guess I would say "the incredible flexibility"!

It starts as a 4th level power, but can grow to whatever you have the inclination and capacity for.

Strangely enough, our party's psion doesn't go for this type of power.

so the reason it is too powerful is the very foundation of the entire system of psionics:

whereas casters gain higher level spells that do the same things as lower level spells only with increased effect, the psionic classes have powers that can be scaled to increase their effect with greater effort.

whereas wizards have an unlimited number of spells known and sorcerers can swap out spells that have become obsolete for newer, more powerful versions, psionic classes are stuck with their limited power selection.


so, ultimately, when one omits the problem power of Energy Missile (which may be similar to 3.0 Haste in the extreme polarity of opinion), would it be fair to say that one concern with psionics is that they are versatile to the point of unpredictability? That as a DM it is hard to know what to send against them because they might be able blow through their power points and overwhelm the challenge?

I believe that this is a valid concern. As a DM it can be a great deal of work to keep things challenging for the characters and when coming from the core classes, the psionic classes end up feeling like power creep.

I would argue that rather than power creep, what the psionic classes are is a paradigm shift. It is not unlike the change that needs to occur if you have a party without a cleric. Suddenly, what seemed like a reasonable combat encounter is deadly. Or a party without a rogue: do you stop using traps or do you give them more resources to help them survive them?

The psionic classes require a shift toward making sure that an enemy can survive a straight on blast. Perhaps going with things to increase touch armor class. This may seem like metagaming but it's not really. In a world where wilders run around wild surging with Energy Rays at 1st level dealing 2d6+2 damage, the wise bad guy is going to prepare for that possiblity.

Early on I said that in my experience, people who like the idea of psionics are more likely to see them as balanced and those who do not are less likely to. I still believe that. Within the shades of gray though, I think that, as I said above, psionics will be, by their nature, unbalanced if you approach them as being the same thing as magic (arcane or divine) because the systems are different. Just like you cannot treat a wizard and a rogue the same. Their strengths and weaknesses are different.

If I were not willing to adjust my tactics and thinking for psionics (because I like them) I would not use them. Since I am willing to adjust my tactics and thinking, they work fine and do not unbalance the game in the slightest.

And before anyone tries to put words in my mouth, I'm not saying I have changed the structure of my game. My sessions tend to be 60% roleplaying, 30% mysteries and puzzles, and 10% combat. This has been the case for the last 5 years at least. It is the structure that I and my gamers prefer. What has changed is the way that I plan the encounters. I had a psion with Dimension Leap in my game. I needed to be sure that there was no way of seeing (gaining line of sight to) the inside of any locked room that I wanted to stay locked. Just like when I have a cleric with Detect Lie or a wizard with Detect Thoughts, I know that deception needs to be planned out and perhaps not the key to unlocking the entire story, otherwise a single spell would end the session after 20 minutes.

DC