For Nail - The Psion

[Hypersmurf]

Even the fighter 16/Psy War 4 gains a huge advantage by being able to make a full attack after moving--so much of one, that I would expect nearly every fighter build in a world with psionics to inlcude some way to get either hustle or psionic lion's charge or a similar ability. [Even if it's only once or twice per day, it's still worth it].

The Savage Species version is a Drd1, Sor/Wiz2 spell with a min/level duration.

That's 50gp in potion form.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Is that character's survival due to him being a psion or to him being an excellent player? How do his characters do when he plays another type of character?

In the groups I game with this phenomenon is seen frequently as the players like myself who are seen to be better survive encounters that the other do not. More often than not, it is due to the nature of the player than the class.

IME, I find the fighter/melee specialists to be the most vulnerable to frequent character death compared to other classes irregardless of player competance simply because they put themselves in harm's way more often. Survivability of the other classes seems to be more heavily weighted toward play style and player competance.

I concur with this.

In our group so far, the Psion 5 / Fighter 2 / Elocater 1 (BAB 4) has died once. He has gone unconscious about once or twice per level. He is played by a tactically smart player, but he is playing him as a fighter type, hence he gets overwhelmed on occasion.

The Ranger 5 / Rogue 3 (BAB 7) for the first four levels or so used to go unconscious nearly every battle. The running joke about his character was "Fine time to take a nap" for the longest time. Although that has slowed up considerably, he is almost always seriously injured at the end of combat, even though he has the best AC in the group (shy of my psion buffing herself through the stratosphere which has only happened twice). He is play by a tactically not so smart player (and it shows).

The Cleric 5 / Monk 2 / Sacred Fist 1 (BAB 5) rarely goes unconscious, but also rarely contributes to a fight other than an occasional party buff spell and a lot of cure spells. Even when she attacks, she is fairly ineffective. She has the lowest AC in the party by 4, but does not go unconscious often due to playing style (i.e. you will almost never find her in a one on one fight). Since she avoids combat and hangs back a lot, she survives a lot. I'm hoping that the +1 BAB per level of Sacred Fist will make her more effective in combat in the future, but I'm not holding my breath.

My Psion 8 (BAB 4) has gone unconscious once. I too play my psion as a fighter type. And, she averages more melee damage per combat than anyone else in the group at the moment (she did not outaverage the Ranger/Barbarian Shifter who left the group). And, I think she stays conscious because I play her intelligently, but that could be my personal bias.

We have had four other PCs in the group since first level (two played by the current DM when I was DMing, one played by a player who left the group due to over commitments and the last played by a player who left the group when he broke his neck in a freak scuba diving accident). All of these PCs have gone unconscious on multiple occasions and one of the two played by the other DM died.

But as can be seen, the other psion has not been as fortunate as my psion. Part of that may be because he multi-classed and is a power level behind. But, part of it is choice of powers and part of it is playing style.


PS. We have a "heal within a round" rule. If you go below -9 and are healed up to -9 within a round, you are still alive. So, although the Ranger has not died yet, he would have repeatedly died without this house rule. In fact, he went to -34 just this last Sunday and was very lucky that 6 of that was non-lethal damage and that the Cleric was close enough to heal him for 21 points (i.e. he went up to -7) within the round.

 

[Thanee]

Again, it is the point of the system.

While true, that doesn't make the mentioned problem go away. The "micro-steps" allow effects of much higher levels than you should have at the time, by leaving out unnecessary parts. That's a general problem with the augmentation system, not with individual powers only.

I challenge someone to argue how psionics are unbalanced without bringing those powers into play.

Hey, I'm doing that all the time. Look at the earlier posts in this thread. I usually tend to stay away from examples and look at the overall mechanics and such. I specifically compare spellcasting/manifestation power by spell/power level and caster/manifester level and slots/PP only, not by adding up damage dice with a single spell/power or stuff like that. And I look at the benefits the classes offer apart from their casting/manifesting abilities, and also all the small benefits and hindrances, which come along with it.

A system is unbalanced when it can be abused by the majority of the items within it, not when a few outstanding powers are abusable. Individual powers can be house ruled.

I totally agree, actually. There are broken spells, too.

It's not individual powers, but mostly the psion class as a whole (not even so much the psionic system, while it has some flaws, too, like the "micro-steps" thing, but rather that class), which I consider unbalanced with the core rules.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Actually, we are 8th level.

Ah, then you leveled up since the last time you mentioned that... congratulations!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nifft]

I'm currently playing a by-the-book Psion (Telepath, human) and a Cleric (Boccob, Magic & Trickery, started as an elf and got reincarnated as a bugbear), in RttToEE.

I'll let y'all know which one seems overpowered.

-- N

 

[Thanee]

...started as an elf and got reincarnated as a bugbear...

Nice for the stats, but otherwise... ouch!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

I'm currently playing a by-the-book Psion (Telepath, human) and a Cleric (Boccob, Magic & Trickery, started as an elf and got reincarnated as a bugbear), in RttToEE.

I'll let y'all know which one seems overpowered.

Very cool, Nifft! Keep us posted.....what a meat-grinder adventurer!

 

[Nail]

IME, I find the fighter/melee specialists to be the most vulnerable to frequent character death compared to other classes irregardless of player competance simply because they put themselves in harm's way more often. Survivability of the other classes seems to be more heavily weighted toward play style and player competance.

Sure...which is why I'm comparing my Clr to our Psi, and our party's Wiz and the Sor to the Psi. It's as close to apples-to-apples comparison as I can get, really.

Although really: I'm tempted to play a psion myself to prove the point. Very tempted.

 

[Dracomeander]

Although really: I'm tempted to play a psion myself to prove the point. Very tempted.

I think that would be a good idea. That will give you a better idea of the weaknesses and strengths of the psion.

The psion seems to be stronger and in certain cases they can be but not consistently.

After playing several wizards and psions in the new rule set, the one thing that I find to be consistent with the way I build characters isn't that the psion is stronger than the wizard, but he is more self-reliant than the wizard. That is they both affect the enemy to approximately the same degree, but the psion requires fewer of the party's resources to recover afterward.

 

[DreamChaser]

It's not individual powers, but mostly the psion class as a whole (not even so much the psionic system, while it has some flaws, too, like the "micro-steps" thing, but rather that class), which I consider unbalanced with the core rules.

So how do you feel the psion class would be better balanced? What would you do? Or what class should be created to better balance the system?

DC