For Nail - The Psion

[Nail]

Scion! Hello There! We haven't argued about psionics for, what?....a month, at least! Anyway, nice to see you here in the thread.

Here are my concerns, born out in play (using 3.5e):

(1)Psions can manifest too many high (or highest) level powers.
(2)In order to challenge the psion, you must have 2-4 combats per day (and one of those encounters had better include someone with a Dispel Magic/Psionics).
(3)Psionic powers, psionic monsters, and psionic items require fundamental changes to other campaign magic-users.
(4)Psions get many feats for free: Eschew Components, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Heighten Spell, Empower Spell, and Energy Substitution (all energy types).
(5)Many Psion powers are either out-of-balance or have no non-psionic effective counters.

...and you responded:

(1) completely subjective and not useful in any fashion....(snip)....

(2) In order to make the system work for any class made so far this has to be done. Not doing so causes lots of other problems. The problem here is not the psion, it is with people not playing the system properly and creating a problem themselves.......(snip)....

(3) Completely false. Given that the default is transparency there is zero difference....(snip)....

(4) Again completely false, these things simply do not apply. Each system works under different base principles for what these represent.....(snip)....

(5) This is an odd statement given how many different spells are broken in the current system and yet people still use magic. There are many, many more troublesome spells than troublesome powers. ....(snip).....

Thanks for responding, BTW.

So:

#1) The only subjective term is "too many". If that term does work for you, let's try "about twice as many". How's that?

Psions can put all of their PP into higher (or highest) level powers. Spell-casters cannot. The difference is marked, and readily apparent IME....and, in reading the story boards, in many other campaigns. Put another way: Having 7+ 2nd level spells is not very useful to a Wiz 17. Psions have no such restriction. (BTW, your statement: "since the arcanes version tends to be too weak anyway it is completely irrelevant if the psions version is stronger." is hardly an arguement in the psion's favor.)

If this "Too many high-level powers" thing was my only concern, and was balanced by the preponderance of the other class abilities, I'd let it slide. But it's not.


#2)Your assertion is not born out in other games, both the games I'm involved in, and the games I've read about. Asserting that "people not playing the system properly" is ....unconvincing.


#3)Even with the default transparency, lots of things have to be changed. Your BBEG Wizard's spell-list, for one. He'd better have researched a "Dismiss Ectoplasm" spell if he knows what's good for him. This problem is huge.


#4)You've ducked the Energy Substitution arguement before. And missed the ability to manifest powers in amazing circumstances, like a grapple. Etc. This problem is also huge.


#5)Sounds like we should make a list of broken spells and powers. I'd make a fair bet the Powers list is more egregious. Regardless, it's the "counters" issue that I have the most concerns about (born out in real play, BTW, not some conjecture). The Ectoplasm power s are the chief example, although the move-action Dimensional Slide, and the un-errata'd Energy Missile is high on the list. <EDIT>: Yoowza! I forgot Astral Construct!


There. Point for point, and then some. Your serve!

(Where's this thread's starter? Didn't he want to discuss this issue with me? )

 

[Thanee]

Personally I always thought psions were balanced primarily against specialist wizards. (i.e. Barred schools versus good spells on discipline lists, similar number of pp/equivalent spells per day, bonus feats at the same levels, etc.) Comparing it to a sorcerer all the time seems to be an apples and oranges thing.

Nah, I think it's exactly the other way around. Psion and sorcerer are very similar, while psion and wizard are two completely different things.

Perhaps the wizard isn't perfectly balanced against a sorcerer. I seem to recall a multitude of threads, back in the day, on the very subject.

The wizard is certainly a bit ahead of the sorcerer, but that is just a small difference.

Only, if the campaign style heavily favors wizards, that is, allows them to almost always know in advance what spells they need and almost always give them the 15 minutes to change their spell selection, only then is the wizard vastly superior to the sorcerer, for obvious reasons.

So why are we comparing it to a sorcerer? Is it just the spontaneous casting thing?

Exactly, because that is the primary ability of both the psion and the sorcerer.

Comparing psion and wizard is not very easily done, because you have two fundamentally different casters, there, one that prepares and one that casts (well, manifests) spontaneously.

Too bad, that there is no prepared psionic user, that would make things a lot easier.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

The only advantage Quicken has over Schism is that the manifester level for Schism is 6 levels lower.

This is actually no difference, since Quicken also costs 6 PP, which is exactly the -6 manifester level from Schism. Or rather, the difference is, that with Schism you do not pay the extra 6 PP to "quicken" the power, the maximum manifester level is effectively the same, tho.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

This is actually no difference, since Quicken also costs 6 PP, which is exactly the -6 manifester level from Schism. Or rather, the difference is, that with Schism you do not pay the extra 6 PP to "quicken" the power, the maximum manifester level is effectively the same, tho.

Incorrect.

Quicken Power increases the number of PP of the power by 6. The manifester level is the same.

Schism limits the manifester level of the power to 6 below that of the character.

For example, an 11th level Psion could Quicken Darkvision. It would last for 11 hours.

An 11th level Psion cound instead Schism Darkvision. It would last for 5 hours because the schismed mind has a manifester 6 less than normal.

"Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is."

 

[Thanee]

Ah, ok, you're right there, of course.

For effects that scale with manifester level, like duration, and for SR penetration, too, then.

I was mainly thinking about the actual effect of the spell, there the effective manifester level (that is amount of PP that can be spent on base cost+augmentation) is the same.

A quickened Energy Ray at maximum augmentation does the same as an Energy Ray with maximum augmentation manifested via Schism, for example.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

This is true, but is this really an issue? How many long range spells/powers do you need to not be ineffective? One? A few? Psions get enough of those for sure and a huge majority of confrontations will happen at short range, anyways (or is that different in your games?).

Range has been an issue in about one combat in three or four for both psions in our group since level one.

Looking at this on paper, I can see where people wouldn't think that it is a big deal. In an actual game though, it comes up.

It's a weakness, no doubt about it.

That might be. In general, the self-buffing powers are pretty good, tho.

The self buffing powers are good. But, they do not make up for the fact that arcane caster can "disappear" from the battlefield completely and still be a factor in the battle.

There is a major difference between boosting a save by two and being hard or impossible to target by opponents.

7th level for Egoists, 9th level for everyone else. Not really a difference to typical sorcerers.

That "some exceptions" part for sorcerers is funny... 99% exceptions?

I actually meant "some exceptions" to 11th level psions (like the 7th level Nomad or Egoist).

Yeah, right! Psionic Dominate is a really bad power. C'mon!

Compared to Dominate Person where you do not have to concentrate on it and it lasts one day per level?

Granted, they errata-ed it, but Telepaths should have the advantage here and even with the errata, arcane casters have a duration advantage for a few levels.

What I find interesting is that when a power is weaker than a spell, people think it's unimportant. When a power is greater than a spell, people think it's important.

When a spell exists and a power does not, it's unimportant. When a power exists and a spell does not, it's important.

Why is that?

Okay, a minor issue, close to being neglectable.

If you say so. I was just pointing out where psions were weaker. This is one.

Yep, a sorcerer can buff his-/herselves AND others Str (for example) with Bull's Strength.
A psion can buff his-/herselves Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha with Animal Affinity.

Sounds like a fair deal to me, if not more.

The point is that a psion buffing his weak ability scores does not gain anything. An arcane caster buffing the strong ability scores of fellow PCs gains a LOT in many circumstances.

Increasing the AC of the Rogue by 2 when the Rogue already has the highest AC in the party allows the Rogue to hold off an enemy for a while.

Increasing the to hit and damage of the Fighter by 2 (or 3 for damage with a two handed weapon) allows the Fighter to more easily bypass Damage Reduction and to take out opponents faster.

Ok. Not much of an issue either, since summoned creatures tend to be rather weak overall.

Here you are just incorrect. A prepared arcane caster can be immune to summoned monsters or manifested constructs and he can make the rest of his allies immune as well. A psion has no powers to be immune to these. Having a complete defense against an entire type of spells/powers is not weak.

There are actually quite a few spells, which psions do not have access to.

There are also some powers, which arcanists have no access to.
Some of those are quite powerful, too (i.e. Psychic Reformation, Psionic Restoration, Psionic Freedom of Movement, etc).

The difference is that the Globe spells outright stop a large number of psionic powers. Defense is big in the game, especially in save or die type situations. Arcane casters have better defensive spells (except for AC boosting) and hence, can survive easier.

You seem to blow off defensive spells/powers as no big deal. That's an error. Defensive spells / power make / break the game.

Yeah, a disadvantage (if you can even call it that), that is about completely neglectable from 3rd level onwards.

Again not true. Multi-opponent area effect movement limiting spells easily change the course of battle and they even do so at high level. They can sometimes even result in TPK. This is huge, but you pretend that it is nothing.

I would rather compare the swapping to the auto-level-scaling psions get. The sorcerer has a very limited form of upgrading spells (to higher versions, or something else; this is mostly to prevent sorcerers from avoiding low-level spells with caps, since they would then be stuck with those choices forever like in 3.0).

The psion gets this ability for free for (pretty much) all powers (except, of course, that the psion cannot change to a completely different power), there are very few powers for psions, which are completely useless later on, since there are (almost) no caps and many scale with the power level (can be augmented to higher versions). With a careful choice of powers (which sorcerers, even with the ability to swap one spell every other level, also have to do) this is no issue at all and overall even an advantage for the psion, since it works on the full breadth of their chosen powers, not just an extremely limited amount.

Psychic Reformation, while costing a power known, completely tops this ability by being able to rewrite almost your whole character (for a cost, of course).

Or anyone else's character for that matter.

A bonus feat, no less. Psions do not get Scribe Scroll or an equivalent, but neither do sorcerers.

Being able to not obtain a familiar, which as I have read many arcane casters do (I don't know why, I like familiars, but still), is a big advantage for the psion. I guess, if you could swap the familiar for a bonus feat, many arcanists would do so.

We all know what makes the human such a powerful race. It's the bonus feat at 1st level!

If you say so. I rarely play a human.

Did you include all the augmentable powers, or only those with "mass" in their name?

Nope. Only the ones with Mass in their name. I also did not include the vast number of area effects spells. There are only a few area effect powers.

All in all, the edge in affecting more than one opponent goes to arcane casters.

Agreed. That is a huge disadvantage.

However, since their powers known are limited (as with the sorcerer), this disadvantage is not as big as it would be, if they were more akin to wizards (then it would be REALLY huge).

Also, with the bonus feats, this disadvantage is lessened further.

In the end, it comes to how any psion's power selection really looks like compared to a spell list a sorcerer can cast the daily spells from. That is the only spell/power list, that is really relevant. If you look at those, I don't think the psion is at such a disadvantage, really. All in all (including the quicker access to higher levels and the higher number of powers of the highest levels) the psion is probably at a rather big advantage even. We all know how much more important the highest known levels are.

The lists are different lengths though and one has a restriction and the other does not. Hence, a disadvantage. Not necessarily a huge disadvantage, but one nonetheless.

 

[KarinsDad]

A quickened Energy Ray at maximum augmentation does the same as an Energy Ray with maximum augmentation manifested via Schism, for example.

Actually, a Quickened Energy Ray does not do the same as a Schismed Energy Ray at maximum PP. It only does the same damage.

But, the quickened one has a range of 15 feet more and that can be a difference.

 

[Thanee]

Range has been an issue in about one combat in three or four for both psions in our group since level one.

Looking at this on paper, I can see where people wouldn't think that it is a big deal. In an actual game though, it comes up.

It's a weakness, no doubt about it.

No kidding. I absolutely know that from my sorceress, who had only close range spells for a good while. But picking up one or two decent long range spell almost completely negated this. For me at least. That's why I think it would be similar for a psion. And there are some really good medium/long range powers available early one already, which continue to be useful to higher levels. While a huge amount of long range spells is better, of course, I don't think the difference between having just a few and a large number is that big effectively. The advantage in choice is there, of course.

There is a major difference between boosting a save by two and being hard or impossible to target by opponents.

Yes, that's right. I'd have to look through the power list to see, if they really have nothing in that area.

Don't they have a power similar to Gaseous Form?

Compared to Dominate Person where you do not have to concentrate on it and it lasts one day per level?

Granted, they errata-ed it, but Telepaths should have the advantage here and even with the errata, arcane casters have a duration advantage for a few levels.

What I find interesting is that when a power is weaker than a spell, people think it's unimportant. When a power is greater than a spell, people think it's important.

When a spell exists and a power does not, it's unimportant. When a power exists and a spell does not, it's important.

Why is that?

Oh, please. Psionic Dominate is in almost all situations completely superior to Dominate Person.

Here you are just incorrect. A prepared arcane caster can be immune to summoned monsters or manifested constructs and he can make the rest of his allies immune as well. A psion has no powers to be immune to these. Having a complete defense against an entire type of spells/powers is not weak.

Protection from Evil only makes you immune to natural attacks from summoned creatures that fail to apply their spell resistance. That's hardly immunity. It provides no protection whatsoever against astral constructs, those are not summoned.

Arcane casters have better defensive spells (except for AC boosting) and hence, can survive easier.

Ok.

You seem to blow off defensive spells/powers as no big deal. That's an error. Defensive spells / power make / break the game.

No, I know how good defense is. I do not consider the globe spells to be that great, tho.

AC is also one of the most useful defensive boosts (along with being unable to get targeted, as you say, and spells/powers that grant a decent miss chance).

And being able to negate ability damage or being immune to grapple and movement hampering is also not to be underestimated.

Again not true. Multi-opponent area effect movement limiting spells easily change the course of battle and they even do so at high level. They can sometimes even result in TPK. This is huge, but you pretend that it is nothing.

Here you were mixing something up. You replied to my answer to the 0th level spells.

If you say so. I rarely play a human.

Not just I, mostly everyone says (according to numerous threads and polls on this site at least), that humans are among the most powerful +0 LA races (dwarves, too, of course).

All in all, the edge in affecting more than one opponent goes to arcane casters.

I'm really not sure about that one. The augmentable "mass" powers are generally way earlier useable, and most often you only need a few targets, anyways.

Arcanists have more choice, since there simply are more spells out there, but I wouldn't say that these choices really are better than what psionicists get.

The lists are different lengths though and one has a restriction and the other does not. Hence, a disadvantage. Not necessarily a huge disadvantage, but one nonetheless.

Of course. There are many factors to consider.

That's why I always say, that comparing stuff like damage dice per day doesn't really show anything useful, because it justs looks at a rather small fraction of the whole picture. You need to (at least try) to look at the whole picture to get a decent idea of the overall power level.



Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Actually, a Quickened Energy Ray does not do the same as a Schismed Energy Ray at maximum PP. It only does the same damage.

Yes, I was speaking of damage. Range/Duration and so on are factors, but they are only minor factors compared to the primary effect... damage, in this case.

It was just a random example, you could also pick one with medium or long range, then you have no issue at all with range, regardless of manifester level. 150+ ft. is more than enough, almost always.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

A prepared arcane caster can be immune to summoned monsters ....

Check.

or manifested constructs and he can make the rest of his allies immune as well.

Whaaaa? Really? Tell me how, exactly. (Without using the "Globe of Invul." spells. Those are weak and little used IME.)

Heck, list all of the ways a non-psion can "be immune" to Astral Constructs. I'd love to hear about it. Really.

Astral Constructs have higher ACs, better abilities, and higher attack rolls than a similar summoned monster. It is just flat out a superior power.