D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Based on their characterization of me in the sister thread to this one, I don't think that OP is really interested in digging into the meat of what makes Greyhawk feel like Greyhawk. I am not certain why, but they seem to take our attempts at trying to get something concrete to work from in a discussion as painting them in a corner so that we can say "AHA, Greyhawk isn't with a campaign setting!".

I have legitimately tried to work with everyone here to try to nail down some themes for the setting to work from but I'm having a strangely hard time getting the big fans to engage on a level deeper than broad brush ideas.

If someone writes a post saying "It's not about Dragonborn, Dragonborn are fine" (which is the second time I've done that in this thread alone), and your immediate first point is to characterize the poster as demanding that races like Dragonborn be excluded, you are unlikely to be met with hosannas and requests to continue the conversation.
 
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JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
In addition to the long post I made yesterday, there's the old "Greyhawk in the Hawk" post from the Greytalk listserv days which might help focus the tone/elements-that-define-the-setting discussion a bit more concretely. I didn't post this earlier since it really positions GH and FR in direct opposition, and I don't think that's very productive, but I think that it is still useful as a quick prompt to try to build some more specificity into the discussion.

This was originally written by the Greytalk user Nitescreed and published to the listserv in 1996:



Allan.
Thank you for posting something concrete to chew on.

Criteria 1: Applied Internal History is Critical. I think to grab this and make it a "hook" for a campaign setting, you would be advocating for the book to include a decently detailed "History and Politics of Greyhawk" chapter with a caveat that when running a GH campaign you should be using aspects of this history (not just the last few years) in your adventure and plot design. This seems like a pretty reasonable thing to do and (I haven't read the Eberron book to know this for certain) it seems like something that differentiates it from the other settings.

Criteria 2: Player resolution of critical events. I wrinkled my brow at this as I was reading it and then looked to see when this was written. I didn't realize it was closing in on 25 years ago. I think that "modern" adventure path design and expectations has made this a universal trait for D&D in general by this point. The dated examples of "in the FR Elminster just fixes everything" doesn't stand the modern example of something like ToA, where the PCs are tasked with saving the world from an evil artifact, despite being D tier candidates at pulling that off when the adventure starts. I don't think that any particular campaign setting can hang its hat on this hook anymore.

Criteria 3: NPCs reward more than they direct. If your setting book gets wrapped up in an adventure path I don't see this being able to be accomplished. They pretty much require, by design, a bit of the old NPC needs you to do this railroading. As a strict setting book, however, this could be a good include in the "How to run a game in Greyhawk" section. By explicitly saying that its rare that PCs walk through town looking for quest icons above the NPCs heads, an instead the group should be more self motivated it would give you a direction to start designing in. This also tends to set up a more "sandbox" feel for a campaign, so I feel that a deeper dive into designing a good sandbox in the GM section would be kind of a requirement to support this. I think MANY players (mine included) have a hard time not looking for the quest giver icons when they get bored.

Criteria 4 & 5: Persistant Evil and Various Villany. This kind of runs together to me, and to a certain extent, like Criteria 2, feels a little outdated in 2020. I don't feel like there is some fundamental difference in feel between the Scarlet Brotherhood and the Zhentarium, as both represent "bad guy organizations with nefarious purpose". I don't see this as a defining trait as explained here, but I may be missing something. Now, when it comes to "You cannot defeat evil" as a campaign hook, that is very different in feel from the FR. But at the same times its kind of the main hook to Ravenloft. I think that it would be an interesting include in the campaign to have some "eternally present, at best you can banish him for a short time" main villain like Iuz, and it might be even more interesting to have the bad guy actually "Rated R" bad, but I can't see that making print in a 5e book.

Criteria 6: Heroism with a price: I think this is another good nugget to latch onto to create a distinct identity for the GH setting. By emphasizing in the "How to GM this setting" portion of the book how each success paints a target on the PCs backs, and how the opposition to them as individuals by evil proper grows with their exploits you have a hook that would make me want to play in this setting. Beef up the "opposition" with a decent rules module for "Renown", that operates similar to standing in an organization, but in a bad way to put some crunch on that tasty bone and you have me ready to make a character TODAY!

Criteria 7: Militant Neutrality: This is another one that I see as not being particularly Greyhawk. Then again in my homebrew campaign I only paint in shades of grey (the main villain is a theocracy of Tempus who has been crusading for 30+ years and the world is getting tired of it). I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of someone "fighting against good" that isn't evil. What are the good teams doing that the neutral teams find offensive, and is something that offensive considered good? This one I would have to discuss further to see what you are aiming at.

Criteria 8: Personal Magics: Everything you describe here I like to do in my homebrew campaigns (unique magic items moreso than spells) and I fully support it. Other than the Named Spells in the PHB, though, I never recall seeing custom items or additional named spells in any of the adventure modules so it could be that this is part of GH I just never experienced.


Those are my thoughts on what might make a good GH campaign book. As mentioned by the OP, they would like to see nonmagical variations of some of the player classes. While I don't think GH ever had these in its setting in the past, I do think that the inclusion of a spellless Ranger/Paladin/Bard would be a worthy addition to a settings theme....as well as just a general sales generator for WotC in general. Those could be plucked out and used in pretty much any campaign easily and would be worth the pages invested.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
Theros does a great job at evoking the Greco-Roman legends while still feeling like D&D. I was surprised that it outright said "other than humans, nothing else in the PHB exists here." Though, a DM could easily add them back in and still have it feel right, because so many other elements in it contribute to the tone of the game. The feel of Theros comes more from the things they added rather than what they removed. The same could easily be done with Greyhawk...once you nail down the feel of it, which isn't going to be easy.

One of the reasons I mention Theros is as a counterexample to the whole, "Nothing can be removed, there may never be any limitations, ever, to a campaign setting" that I sometimes see. Because there can be, as we see.

In my mind, though, the limits may end up being changes/alterations to classes. I think that having spell-less (with additional abilities) Rangers and Paladins, and changing things around so only the "full casters" remain, would be an interesting idea. But there are a number of approached that could be taken; I don't have a strong opinion on the absolute best one to take.
 

mserabian

Explorer
Criteria 7: Militant Neutrality: This is another one that I see as not being particularly Greyhawk. Then again in my homebrew campaign I only paint in shades of grey (the main villain is a theocracy of Tempus who has been crusading for 30+ years and the world is getting tired of it). I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the idea of someone "fighting against good" that isn't evil. What are the good teams doing that the neutral teams find offensive, and is something that offensive considered good? This one I would have to discuss further to see what you are aiming at.

I'm certainly not an expert but I'm pretty sure what this means in terms of Greyhawk is that Neutrality requires Good and Evil to be equally powerful and influential. If Good gets a win, then Evil needs to get a win next time. Good should not be ascendant, and neither should Evil. If you have a Good country, there should be an Evil country to oppose it. etc...
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Has anyone taken a look at Greyhawk Reborn? They seem to have an interest in continuing the world for 5e.

I don't have much of an interest in a revolving "living Greyhawk" type thing as I have a dedicated steady group, but I wonder if their ideas are good? Will have to take a look at the docs.
 

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
I'm certainly not an expert but I'm pretty sure what this means in terms of Greyhawk is that Neutrality requires Good and Evil to be equally powerful and influential. If Good gets a win, then Evil needs to get a win next time. Good should not be ascendant, and neither should Evil. If you have a Good country, there should be an Evil country to oppose it. etc...
That's kind of like the Druid style of True Neutral as opposed to the "I don't care much" or the "I'm a little good and a little bad" style of True Neutral. I always found the Druid style to not really make any sense once you start applying it to real world situations. Can someone give me a Greyhawk lore example of when this happened in a previous plot point?
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
One of the reasons I mention Theros is as a counterexample to the whole, "Nothing can be removed, there may never be any limitations, ever, to a campaign setting" that I sometimes see. Because there can be, as we see.

In my mind, though, the limits may end up being changes/alterations to classes. I think that having spell-less (with additional abilities) Rangers and Paladins, and changing things around so only the "full casters" remain, would be an interesting idea. But there are a number of approached that could be taken; I don't have a strong opinion on the absolute best one to take.

I think the 5e Paladin class is one of the best implementations of the "holy warrior" concept in any edition of D&D and I would hate to change it. I think 5e Paladins fit in quite easily into the Greyhawk mix both as protagonists and antagonists.

I think the concept of Ranger conclaves (as presented in UA) is a decent (though not perfect) fit for Greyhawk and would rather go that route than a spell-less ranger. Though frankly, if you want to go that route, it's pretty easy - something akin to the scout rogue subclass and done.
 

Stormdale

Explorer
I bought the ‘83 folio when it came out after buying modules rather a setting earlier (the earlier 80 folio had been on my radar for a long time but a limited gaming budget as a high school student meant by the time i gott round to it the new version was available) and have enjoyed the barebones, but consistent, broad brushstrokes approach of the original as a springboard to creativity ever since. Gary sprinkled flavour through the text so that the setting became the springboard to countless different interpretations as each DM ran with their version of setting, not have one imposed on them by game designers. It was a product of a very different time in the gaming industry and one where DMs (and players) were expected to add their own creativity and interpretations and build their own version of the world. As such Greyhawk for me has been a huge success.

I liked the they have tried to reboot it several times and the 3e version showed a lot of love of the setting by Erik Moana and the team but somehow felt cold, clinical and to me and the writing didn’t grab me the same way that Gary’s original did so even after all these years the '83 set as my baseline and seldom refer to anything else.

Over the years I’ve run games in Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms (loved the Grey box when it came out) but since about 2012 have been almost exclusively gaming back I my version of Greyhawk- based off the ‘83 box set but with a tmeline based on the adventures and campaigns I’ve run that have shaped the world. I’ve never run the wars but back in the late 80s against the giants ended in a huge war on the borders of Keoland in my games and that real life (well for us) event continues to resonate and impact my version of Greyhawk. I love seeing adventurers and adventures impacting my current world, the players get a snippet of the campaign world here and now but now for me MY Greyhawk echoes with stories long since ended and days and nights spent with my friends engging in adventures that shaped Greyhawk. So yes there is an element of nostagia as I reflect on the actions of friends who for whatever reasons are no longer are at the gaming table but whose stories have left an imprint on the world.

So for me a new modernised version of Greyhawk is something I don’t need. Sure it would be nice and I love introducing players to the setting (and the classic modules) and running a 1e inspired 5e game but don’t care whether or not the setting is updated or not. The arguments of high vs low magic grim and gritty etc are superfluous because the original idea of Gary was here is the setting, own it, make it yours and use the ideas here as springboards for you own game and that’s why I really don’t see one version (or vision) of the game as being necessary. Fans saying this is the only way to run Grayhawk or it needs X in it to me are irrelevant, Greyhawk, is, was and always will be what you make it setting and no two Greyhawks should ever be the same.

That being said, I’d like to see Greyhawk inspire and attract new players and would love to see the 83 boxed set redone purely to get another copy of the Darlene maps which are still amongst my favourties out there even after all these years.

Stormdale
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
That being said, I’d like to see Greyhawk inspire and attract new players and would love to see the 83 boxed set redone purely to get another copy of the Darlene maps which are still amongst my favourties out there even after all these years.

I love the '83 box set like an ATHF Fan loves the Mooninites, but .... I just don't think it would be a thing for modern gamers. They can always just get a .pdf on drivethrurpg.

In order to bring in new fans, they have to release a new setting. IMO. And then those fans will have a Greyhawk to call their own.

Hopefully with the Darlene maps. Those were awesome. :)
 

Remathilis

Legend
One of the reasons I mention Theros is as a counterexample to the whole, "Nothing can be removed, there may never be any limitations, ever, to a campaign setting" that I sometimes see. Because there can be, as we see.

Here is my take on this. Bear in mind, I'm speaking regarding official published guidelines, not house rules.

The question isn't whether things should be excluded, but why. A setting like Dragonlance or Dark Sun removes some common races but replaces them with unique options. A setting like Theros or Ravnica is attempting to emulate an extremely specific setting that wasn't designed with D&D in mind. In both cases, the reason for the exclusion was based on specific lore that contradicts the core assumptions, while at the same time offering new options to compensate for their exclusion.

The one that I don't accept is "It didn't exist when the setting was created." So what. The game has grown to include new elements. Find them a home. There is nothing, for example, in Greyhawk lore that would explicitly forbid any option in the PHB; Oerth is connected to the multiverse (indeed, its GH's model of the planes that other settings must bend to conform with, not vice versa), it has plenty of other sentient races (some of which have animalistic features) and doesn't feature any cataclysms or RSEs that would have killed off any particular race, class, or monster. Simply put, I don't believe "it didn't exist before the year 2000" to be an acceptable reason to ban anything from an official setting guidebook.

Of course, do what you want at your own table. If you want to remove sorcerers, ban tieflings, or even say dwarves and halflings can never be mages or paladins, more power to you.
 

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