D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I dunno, "I liked it"? There's a pretty big gap between "It's fine," and "THIS MODULE FOREVER DEFINE NEU GREYHAWK."

All I asked was if you felt if it tonally represented Greyhawk, and you still haven't really answered that.

I'm fully aware about the DMsGuild and that it's not a Campaign Setting, I agree with you on all that. That's not what Ghosts of Saltmarsh is, it's an AP. All I was curious to know was if you felt like it was an AP in your "vision of Greyhawk."

It sounds like a "no," but you haven't really made clear why without dragging in things like the DMsGuild which isn't really relevant to my question.

I've answered this multiple times- just because I don't give you an answer you want, doesn't mean I haven't answered you. I'm not going to say either, "I liked it," or "I didn't like it," because my feeling are more complicated, but best summed up with what I keep saying- It's fine.

And it also doesn't mean that you should represent what I said incorrectly ("But the OP complained that Ghosts of Saltmarsh felt to kitchen-sinky to him, which is why I wrote that."). I did not complain about GoS, and I certainly didn't say that GoS was too "kitchen-sinky."

But let's go over this again:

1. I love the U series. U1 is an all-time great. But if you were to put together a list of the Greatest (Greyahwk-Specific) modules, I doubt it would be on the top 10 .... because it's not GH-specific. It's a setting agnostic series. Do you know how U1 ties into Greyhawk? On page three, you can find the following:
In general, be guided by any small south-coast English fishing town of the 14th Century and with population about 2,000. On the WORLD OF GREYHAWK™ map, Saltmarsh is placed in the southernmost part of Keoland, at the western edge of hex U4/123.

That's it. Saltmarsh isn't specifically "Greyhawk," it just had a sentence placing it there. So it's not like republishing the U series is a big boon to Greyhawk fans.

2. They didn't open the DM's Guild; when they touched on other settings (like Ravenloft) with an AP, they did. But they kept it locked down. That's part and parcel of it.

3. It's an AP, and not a campaign setting.

4. It's not a new module set in Greyhawk, but a reprint of modules that many people are already familiar with.

5. The only new mechanics (seafarin') have nothing to do with Greyhawk, really.

6. Yes, they have Scarlet Brotherhood faction. They have some pages on Greyhawk that are ... fine.

That's what it comes down to. It's republished material, with mechanics that are not unique to Greyhawk. It's not offensive, there is nothing bad, but it's not a campaign setting, it's not new, and it didn't open the guild. On the other hand, I am pleased that there is an AP set in Greyhawk that doesn't do violence to the setting- given the history, that's not a small thing.

It was fine. What more do you want?
 
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grodog

Hero
All I asked was if you felt if it tonally represented Greyhawk, and you still haven't really answered that.

Tone in Greyhawk is, I think, something that does vary quite a bit from group to group based on what adventure is currently being played, and perhaps also from edition to edition. But when I hear folks comment that Greyhawk is low magic or that spell casters are rare, that does not align at all with my vision for Greyhawk. To me, Greyhawk is a setting where gods and demons walk the earth, where artifacts and relics are at play on the fields of battle, where the landscape of the plane was shattered by human-made magical catastrophes multiple times over, and where high-level casters are available to resurrect and restore fallen PCs.

My Greyhawk perhaps draws more heavily on Michael Moorcock and Philip Jose Farmer for inspiration that other folks' view of the setting, but I still also love "medieval" feel of Thieves World-meets-Lankhmar sense of the setting too. But I'll never give up that "world on the brink of catastrophe" potential that the high-magic backdrop of history in Greyhawk provides.

Allan.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
I've answered this multiple times- just because I don't give you an answer you want, doesn't mean I haven't answered you. I'm not going to say either, "I liked it," or "I didn't like it," because my feeling are more complicated, but best summed up with what I keep saying- It's fine.

And it also doesn't mean that you should represent what I said incorrectly ("But the OP complained that Ghosts of Saltmarsh felt to kitchen-sinky to him, which is why I wrote that."). I did not complain about GoS, and I certainly didn't say that GoS was too "kitchen-sinky."

But let's go over this again:

1. I love the U series. U1 is an all-time great. But if you were to put together a list of the Greatest (Greyahwk-Specific) modules, I doubt it would be on the top 10 .... because it's not GH-specific. It's a setting agnostic series. Do you know how U1 ties into Greyhawk? On page three, you can find the following:
In general, be guided by any small south-coast English fishing town of the 14th Century and with population about 2,000. On the WORLD OF GREYHAWK™ map, Saltmarsh is placed in the southernmost part of Keoland, at the western edge of hex U4/123.

That's it. Saltmarsh isn't specifically "Greyhawk," it just had a sentence placing it there. So it's not like republishing the U series is a big boon to Greyhawk fans.

2. They didn't open the DM's Guild; when they touched on other settings (like Ravenloft) with an AP, they did. But they kept it locked down. That's part and parcel of it.

3. It's an AP, and not a campaign setting.

4. It's not a new module set in Greyhawk, but a reprint of modules that many people are already familiar with.

5. The only new mechanics (seafarin') have nothing to do with Greyhawk, really.

6. Yes, they have Scarlet Brotherhood faction. They have some pages on Greyhawk that are ... fine.

That's what it comes down to. It's republished material, with mechanics that are not unique to Greyhawk. It's not offensive, there is nothing bad, but it's not a campaign setting, it's not new, and it didn't open the guild. On the other hand, I am pleased that there is an AP set in Greyhawk that doesn't do violence to the setting- given the history, that's not a small thing.

It was fine. What more do you want?

I'm going to repeat my question, as you're still not answering it, and instead are dragging in other reasons not to like the book (which is fine, I just want an answer to this question).

Does Ghosts of Saltmarsh represent your vision of Greyhawk's setting in tone or theme?

In your OP, you write this;

Greyhawk is different. Both in "feel," and I would argue in "concept." The first is less important, but it often gets trotted out. So here it is:
Greyhawk is swords & sorcery. Realms is high fantasy.
Greyhawk is (almost) post-apocalyptic, with scattered civilizations holding out. FR isn't.
Greyhawk is more neutral-focused (maintain balanced). FR is more about heroic good defeating evil.
Greyhawk's best days are in the past; the Great Kingdom is in irreversible decline, and the Suel and Bakluns will never have the power of the Rain of Colorless Fire and Invoked Devastation. FR's has Elminster.

I thought GoS did a good job of representing some of those themes in the introduction to Saltmarsh and its surrounding regions in the introductory chapter, and want to know your thoughts on specifically the tone the book set. The other complaints you've made abundantly clear.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
I'm going to repeat my question, as you're still not answering it, and instead are dragging in other reasons not to like the book (which is fine, I just want an answer to this question).

Does Ghosts of Saltmarsh represent your vision of Greyhawk's setting in tone or theme?

That's what it comes down to. It's republished material, with mechanics that are not unique to Greyhawk. It's not offensive, there is nothing bad, but it's not a campaign setting, it's not new, and it didn't open the guild. On the other hand, I am pleased that there is an AP set in Greyhawk that doesn't do violence to the setting- given the history, that's not a small thing.

It was fine. What more do you want?


I find this unproductive; I do not recommend asking again.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
That's what it comes down to. It's republished material, with mechanics that are not unique to Greyhawk. It's not offensive, there is nothing bad, but it's not a campaign setting, it's not new, and it didn't open the guild. On the other hand, I am pleased that there is an AP set in Greyhawk that doesn't do violence to the setting- given the history, that's not a small thing.

It was fine. What more do you want?

How did it feel in tone? Does it capture the feel of scattered civilizations? Does it feel more neutral-focused? Does it feel like Keoland is in decline? More swords & sorcery than high fantasy?

I know it's not a campaign setting, I'm not asking if it is, I'm asking if the book matches the themes of Greyhawk that you laid out.
 

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
I'm going to repeat my question, as you're still not answering it, and instead are dragging in other reasons not to like the book (which is fine, I just want an answer to this question).

Does Ghosts of Saltmarsh represent your vision of Greyhawk's setting in tone or theme?

In your OP, you write this;

Greyhawk is different. Both in "feel," and I would argue in "concept." The first is less important, but it often gets trotted out. So here it is:
Greyhawk is swords & sorcery. Realms is high fantasy.
Greyhawk is (almost) post-apocalyptic, with scattered civilizations holding out. FR isn't.
Greyhawk is more neutral-focused (maintain balanced). FR is more about heroic good defeating evil.
Greyhawk's best days are in the past; the Great Kingdom is in irreversible decline, and the Suel and Bakluns will never have the power of the Rain of Colorless Fire and Invoked Devastation. FR's has Elminster.

I thought GoS did a good job of representing some of those themes in the introduction to Saltmarsh and its surrounding regions in the introductory chapter, and want to know your thoughts on specifically the tone the book set. The other complaints you've made abundantly clear.
Based on their characterization of me in the sister thread to this one, I don't think that OP is really interested in digging into the meat of what makes Greyhawk feel like Greyhawk. I am not certain why, but they seem to take our attempts at trying to get something concrete to work from in a discussion as painting them in a corner so that we can say "AHA, Greyhawk isn't with a campaign setting!".

I have legitimately tried to work with everyone here to try to nail down some themes for the setting to work from but I'm having a strangely hard time getting the big fans to engage on a level deeper than broad brush ideas.
 

Urriak Uruk

Gaming is fun, and fun is for everyone
Based on their characterization of me in the sister thread to this one, I don't think that OP is really interested in digging into the meat of what makes Greyhawk feel like Greyhawk. I am not certain why, but they seem to take our attempts at trying to get something concrete to work from in a discussion as painting them in a corner so that we can say "AHA, Greyhawk isn't with a campaign setting!".

I have legitimately tried to work with everyone here to try to nail down some themes for the setting to work from but I'm having a strangely hard time getting the big fans to engage on a level deeper than broad brush ideas.

Yeah I'm feeling some of that same frustration as well... I'm certainly not a "die-hard Greyhawk fan" as I did not play GH at D&D's inception, but at the same time I have a certain fondness for playing D&D "classic style," so find Greyhawk a really fun setting, and enjoy talking of how to make it work within 5E's framework.

I also feel that the OP did hit on the right ideas of Greyhawk's theme in his OP, I'm just confused why he won't speak on GoS theme (which I personally felt hit the right notes).

Tone in Greyhawk is, I think, something that does vary quite a bit from group to group based on what adventure is currently being played, and perhaps also from edition to edition. But when I hear folks comment that Greyhawk is low magic or that spell casters are rare, that does not align at all with my vision for Greyhawk. To me, Greyhawk is a setting where gods and demons walk the earth, where artifacts and relics are at play on the fields of battle, where the landscape of the plane was shattered by human-made magical catastrophes multiple times over, and where high-level casters are available to resurrect and restore fallen PCs.

My Greyhawk perhaps draws more heavily on Michael Moorcock and Philip Jose Farmer for inspiration that other folks' view of the setting, but I still also love "medieval" feel of Thieves World-meets-Lankhmar sense of the setting too. But I'll never give up that "world on the brink of catastrophe" potential that the high-magic backdrop of history in Greyhawk provides.

Allan.

I totally agree with you here, I just don't quite think they are contradictory. Greyhawk is in some ways a bit like Dark Sun, in that in an age past magic was more plentiful, but now most nations are in decline and true heroes hard to find. But powerful individuals, and objects, do exist, and some have an active impact on the world. The most obvious example being Iuz the Evil's Empire to the north.

I think the difference is that there is a big expectation that when you start in Greyhawk, your a low-level normal person, and no high-level NPC is going to show up to bail you out in a tight situation. You can through several adventures get to the power and notoriety of Mordenkainen, but you're more likely to end up dead in a Frost Giant's settlement, your name forgotten.
 

grodog

Hero
I have legitimately tried to work with everyone here to try to nail down some themes for the setting to work from but I'm having a strangely hard time getting the big fans to engage on a level deeper than broad brush ideas.

In addition to the long post I made yesterday, there's the old "Grey in the Hawk" post from the Greytalk listserv days which might help focus the tone/elements-that-define-the-setting discussion a bit more concretely. I didn't post this earlier since it really positions GH and FR in direct opposition, and I don't think that's very productive, but I think that it is still useful as a quick prompt to try to build some more specificity into the discussion.

This was originally written by the Greytalk user Nitescreed and published to the listserv in 1996:

Subj: Grey in the Hawk1
Date: 96-07-26 22:44:41 EDT
From: NiteScreed

What does it mean for a product or adventure or even an
entirely new creation to be suitably "Greyhawk?"

Criteria No. 1 Applied Internal Historic Consistency

Greyhawk has a strong internal sense of history that is
consistently applied in all "Greyhawk" products or
creations. However, not every product published under the
name "Greyhawk" meets this criteria.
Greyhawk is a storied realm. It's seminal figures,
good and ill, are interwoven throughout the setting. It has
a defined history that strongly influences the present and
future of the setting. Greyhawk's history is not a footnote
but an integral part of the setting that must be understood
to truly comprehend the relationships among men, nations and
even gods. True "Greyhawk" products or creations build on
this history, incorporate it and develop it. The best such
products or creations leave enough open ends to allow for
further such development. More mediocre attempt closure of
every loose thread.


Criteria No. 2 Player Resolution of Critical Events

The seminal events in Greyhawk's current history and
development are all presented such that the players may not
only take part but play a leading role.
Players could fight the Greyhawk Wars. Players
defeated the hordes of the Temple of Elemental Evil.
Players defeated Lolth. Players turned the tide as Iuz aced Vecna.
In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Ao decrees an
event and the players get to clean up in the aftermath.
Cyric destroys Zhentil Keep offstage and the players get to
delve into the ruins. Gods die to be replaced by mortals and
the players watch. Elminster sends players on a mission but
ultimately keeps from them the greater goal the mission
serves.
When you play in Greyhawk, you join in the weaving of a
tapestry of which you are a vital part. Greyhawk is about
your story in the context of Greyhawk's story. Roleplaying
in Greyhawk involves playing your part in the longest
running AD&D campaign in existence. It is bigger than you
are but you can become as great as it is. That is the
essence of Greyhawk's history. It enfolds, informs and
connects every part of the setting and all who play there of
any length of time.


Criteria No. 3 NPCs Reward More Often Than They Advise or
Direct

NPC's in Greyhawk are not godlike figures who direct
the course of events upon which your character is washed
like the tide. Neither do they persistently show up to
advise you. They may do both but more often they serve as
the measuring stick against which your character's
performance can be judged and serve to reward your character
by recognizing their accomplishments or otherwise admitting
your character into their august company.
The Circle of Eight are aloof. They do not want to be
your buddy. Neither do they have a laundry list of chores
for you to perform. Rather, in Greyhawk you will find
adventure without such NPCs suggesting it.
In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Elminster is
famous for sending characters on their way. The Harpers do
the same. Ultimately, Elminster or the Harpers play the
directing role and may indeed appear to steal the show or
otherwise claim ultimate victory.
In Greyhawk, YOU are the hero. Without assistance from
the likes of the Circle of Eight and without them acting as
a safety net. You can go your own way, in fact, without
them ever troubling you. This cannot be so simply said in
settings such as the Forgotten Realms and has not a little
to do with Criteria No. 2 (Player Resolution of Critical
Events in Greyhawk vs. NPC Resolution of Critical Events in
FR).

Criteria No. 4 Persistent Personified Evil

Evil in Greyhawk is persistent. It is halted, checked
or imprisoned but it is not defeated with finality for all
time. The triumph over evil is a relative thing, ultimately
transitory.
Evil in Greyhawk is personified. Evil has faces and
names attached to it that ring down through the setting's
history. It is not an evil that pops up purely to give the
players something to strive against and defeat before moving
on to the next evil that similarly appears out of relative
nowhere.
Vecna, Iuz, Lolth, Tharzidun, the Scarlet Brotherhood,
Aerdi, Kas, even Turrosh Mak, all met this criteria. They
are highly personified forces that spring from the settings
specific history. By comparison, evil in the Forgotten
Realms is of the pop-up variety save for the Red Wizards and
Zhentrim. Menaces appear from nowhere or with on the spot
histories that never before appeared in the setting.
Greyhawk allows for this type of toaster villainy but it
also established from the first villains of a historic
character that transcend the needs of the adventure of the
moment.

Criteria No. 5 Villainous Variety

Villainy in Greyhawk runs the gambit from the cosmic
menace of Tharzidun, to the planar peril of Lolth, to the
cambion menace of Iuz, to the purely moral menace of Turrosh
Mak. Their is variety in the villainy. Villainy in
Greyhawk is like a box of chocolates from Hell; you never
know for sure what you are going to get (Best Example: The
Giant Series). Greyhawk's villains do not announce
themselves; you have to figure it out.
Compare villainy in the Forgotten Realms. The variety
isn't there. You have scads of godly villains. The Red
Wizards. The Zhents. It is feast or famine. And FR
villains have signature trademarks that all but announce who
you are facing, unless of course it is an evil toaster
pastry.
Villains in Greyhawk will also turn on each other. The
Iuz/Vecna conflict being perhaps the most famous. In other
settings, villains are villains, identified by their clearly
visible placards, sandwich signs or more "subtly" their
black attire. You can count on them to always do the wrong
thing.
Greyhawk keeps you guessing. Like a good Call of
Cthulthu adventure.

Criteria No. 6 Heroism With a Price

Greyhawk's heros rarely slay the evil wizard, who will
trouble the land no more, to the full voiced cheers of the
crowd. Best Iuz and you are marked. He will be back but
you will have to deal with a likely enraged Zuggotomy in the
meanwhile. Greyhawk's villains don't exist in a vacuum and
neither do Greyhwk's heroes. Everything is linked.
Heroism has a meaning within the setting that makes it
more than a solitary act echoing in the vastness. It
attracts attention, good and ill. It is immediate and
brings a notoriety that other settings can only talk about.
Notables exist to recognize your accomplishments and to
measure you against themselves and the foe you defeated.
And, they will have likely played little or no role in your
victory. Evil too takes your measure for darker reasons.
This criterion can best be seen in the breach. The
interconnection of people and places and the loose ends
creates this effect, though few published adventures use it
to motivate future adventures. The revised supermodule
series provides the greatest opportunity on this score.

Criteria No. 7 Militant Neutrality

On Oerth, the forces of neutrality are arguably at
least as powerful as those of good and evil and certainly as
active.

Iquander alone has accurately defined this
characteristic of Greyhawk and I acknowledge his work.
Greyhawk is not concerned with the triumph of good over
evil. The very nature of the evils loose on Oerth makes
such triumphs fleeting at best. Greyhawk endures evil and
circumvents it. It does not defeat it.
Evil forces, of course, will attempt to conquer Oerth.
And just as certainly they will be opposed by forces who
will seek to banish evil from the world. Neither will
succeed. Neither in the long history of Oerth has ever
succeeded. Good and evil are well enough matched that
outcomes are never certain and always close calls one way or
the other.
Moreover, evil on Oerth is not monolithic. Various
demon lords and ladies contend with each other. Iuz battles
Vecna. Kas seeks Vecna's destruction. Iuz feuds with his
mother and father. Evil beings are true to no one save
themselves.
Perhaps accounting for all of this, Oerth has strong
and active neutrally aligned forces, working to preserve a
balance between good and evil. While hardly organized,
these forces nonetheless manage to be quite effective. The
Circle of Eight, mighty wizards all, seeks a middle path.
Istus, the divine Lady of Fate, tests all but favors none.
Druids are a quiet but ever present presence. Indeed, many
of Greyhawk's deities reflect a distinct neutral bent.
Compare Toril. Evil is overmatched by Elminster, the
Seven Sisters (good aligned minions of the goddess of
magic), the Harpers, the Lords of Waterdeep and activist
gods. Evil is on the run and kept that way. It has but few
strong holds and is highly transient, rarely surviving long
enough to present more than a temporary challenge. Good
triumphs on Toril. The dragon is slain, never to rise. The
horror you never heard of before yesterday is laid to rest.
The bad gods are thrown down!
The differences could not be more striking. Greyhawk
is about struggle against evenly matched and long standing
opponents. FR is about victory over transient and
overmatched opponents.

Criteria No. 8 Personal Magics

Greyhawk is not a low fantasy setting save by
comparison to settings on magical overload. Birthright is a
low fantasy setting. The Forgotten Realms is a high fantasy
setting. Greyhawk falls in between.
What distinguishes magic in Greyhawk is that it is
highly personalized. Look at the spells. Mordenkain's
this. Nystul's that. Otiluke's the other. Magic is
personalized by any wizard not of the hedge variety. Look
at the artifacts for still more proof. What Birthright
strives to achieve sparingly, Greyhawk has already
accomplished in fair profusion. Spells have a history as
due magic items. While there are +1 swords of no certain
fame, many are the items with specific histories. Look at
the Greyhawk Adventures hardback.
Similarly magical instruction in Greyhawk is personal.
Greyhawk does not know great guilds of wizards but
flourishes with a developed system of apprenticeships. One
need but look at the Circle of Eight to see this. They,
with one, possibly two, exceptions, belong to no guild of
mages, and they that do belong do so as patrons at best and
more probably as figureheads. Neither can the Circle itself
be considered a guild. This mighty example and the utter
lack of a single magical guild of any note, fairly well
makes the case.
I will at a later point post more directly on this
subject as I found the article in the Oerth Journal about
wizardly organizations purest fantasy, out of keeping with
the available information on magic in Greyhawk, though the
article was still interesting for all that.

These then are the eight traits that define the Greyhawk
feel. Most critical are 1st (Applied Internal Historic
Consistency), 4th (Persistent Personified Evil) and 7th
(Militant Neutrality) points. At the barest minimum to be
considered truly "Greyhawk" a product or creation must
adhere to these three criteria. Better products or
creations adhere to progressively more of these criteria.

Without doing a full dress analysis of From the Ashes, I
think we can see that it utterly fails to adhere to the 7th
criterion. FtA throws neutrality out the window in favor of
paring off goods and evils in a Flaneass tilted wildly
toward evil. Furondy/Nyrond is pared off with Iuz. Aerdi
is pared off with Nyrond. Keoland is paired off with the
Scarlet Brotherhood/Pomarj. While overall, evil is clearly
ascendent. This sort of dark fantasy, whatever its merits
otherwise, defies the tradition of active neutrality that
defined Greyhawk beforehand. That about half all WoG
players rejected FtA supports this hypothesis. FtA's
designers, to include the Greyhawk Wars, were ignorant,
willfully or otherwise, of the setting in which they worked.
The resulting products while technically proficient, even
well done on their own merits, were sadly lacking in that
Greyhawk feel. Of course, some would choose to ignore this,
finding the change "bracing," others with duller senses
wouldn't even notice.

In any event, now we have a list of what puts the Grey in
the Hawk. This list is by no means exclusive. I may have
overlooked something and I know some listed criteria are of
lesser note than others or mere permutations. However, I
think overall the list can stand up to close scrutiny. Have
at it.

NightScreed

Allan.
 
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my interest in GH is mostly nostalgic... it was the big thing back in the early days, and I have a lot of fond memories of the setting. As for 'preserving it'... it pretty much already is, you can get PDFs or reprints of every WoG related publication out on the internet. Younger players these days seem to want different things out of D&D, which is fine. I have to admit, a big chunk of the reason I hang out on this and similar sites is to talk about 'the good old days' with other old gamer fogies like me. It's highly unlikely that I will ever get back into gaming again, work and life just don't cooperate enough. But I still like to reminisce...
 

Theros does a great job at evoking the Greco-Roman legends while still feeling like D&D. I was surprised that it outright said "other than humans, nothing else in the PHB exists here." Though, a DM could easily add them back in and still have it feel right, because so many other elements in it contribute to the tone of the game. The feel of Theros comes more from the things they added rather than what they removed. The same could easily be done with Greyhawk...once you nail down the feel of it, which isn't going to be easy. Someone that played pre 2e could see Greyhawk could be completely different than someone that played 2e Greyhawk from someone that played 3e Greyhawk. Wizards could walk that line, but it's not going to be easy.

I would say that Theros (mythic play) is a counterpoint to that.
 

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