D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[coolAlias]

What does a True Greyhawk Fan (tm) even want out of a 5e setting book? Expanding the areas covered in detail? Updating the timeline? Simple mechanical conversion of the previous setting?

I wouldn't include myself in that group, as I never got into the setting, but as someone who began playing around that era I think a book that has nonmagical subclass options for the majority of classes, obviously customizable "suggested" lists of allowed races, classes, and even race+class combos within this setting, and a chapter devoted to expanding the Social Pillar of gameplay would do nicely, in addition to the obvious world map, setting details, etc.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

What does a True Greyhawk Fan (tm) even want out of a 5e setting book? Expanding the areas covered in detail? Updating the timeline? Simple mechanical conversion of the previous setting?

The answer, as always, is this- find someone who loves "Old Greyhawk" (WOG) and is also a good designer. And let them make a great product. There is a lot of innate hostility towards new Greyhawk products because, to be honest, there is a long history of them sucking (from the perspective of the Old Guard), with an added dash of the most ill-conceived, worst-ever product (WG7) in the TSR era rubbishing Greyhawk.

But, speaking for myself, I would love to see an "updated Greyhawk" that accentuates the differences in the setting (as compared to other settings) and really emphasizes the swords & sorcery, adventurers for money (not heroic quests) aspects of Greyhawk.

 

[Umbran]

E. Ain't Nothin' Gonna Break-a my Stride, Nobody Gonna Slow me Down

So what is to be done with Greyhawk? I think there are two simple, easy-to-understand, wrong solutions to the problem:
1. Ignore the haters and publish whatever you want; they are just going to whine and die off anyway.
2. Don't bother with Greyhawk; it's not worth it.

The reason neither of these is really suitable is because ignoring the people that are truly passionate about a product is probably not a good way to succeed

I'm sorry, but it seems the demographics are no longer with you on this one.

Let us review: (WotC - Comparing EN World's Demographics to the D&D Community's)

As you noted, Greyhawk material was already waning by 1985 - that was 35 years ago. That means that Greyhawk fans are generally in the 40+ age category... which seems to be around 11% of the current D&D player base.

Greyhawk fans may be vocal, but they no longer hold dominance of gaming's economic pie. It hardly makes sense to put such resources to a project targeting them, considering how critical you note they are.

 

[Mort]

...

The answer, as always, is this- find someone who loves "Old Greyhawk" (WOG) and is also a good designer. And let them make a great product. There is a lot of innate hostility towards new Greyhawk products because, to be honest, there is a long history of them sucking (from the perspective of the Old Guard), with an added dash of the most ill-conceived, worst-ever product (WG7) in the TSR era rubbishing Greyhawk.

...

For a while WoTC had exactly the guy - Erik Mona. You'd be hard pressed to find a bigger fan of Greyhawk who was also a top game designer.

He was responsible for the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (2000) a supplement I still glance at to this day. He was also responsible for quite a lot of Greyhawk content in Dragon and Dungeon Magazine from 2004-2006 when he was editor in chief (granted it was through Paizo but, at that time WotC got the benefit).

 

[billd91]

What does a True Greyhawk Fan (tm) even want out of a 5e setting book? Expanding the areas covered in detail? Updating the timeline? Simple mechanical conversion of the previous setting?

We'd get a current publication that isn't out of print. Even with out of print PDFs available (legally and non-), getting a cohort of new players recruited to Greyhawk fandom would be a lot easier with a new publication catching the eye and occupying retail space along with the other 5e materials. Out of print materials don't quite compete on that front.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

For a while WoTC had exactly the guy - Erik Mona. You'd be hard pressed to find a bigger fan of Greyhawk who was also a top game designer.

He was responsible for the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (2000) a supplement I still glance at to this day. He was also responsible for quite a lot of Greyhawk content in Dragon and Dungeon Magazine from 2004-2006 when he was editor in chief (granted it was through Paizo but, at that time WotC got the benefit).

So if I had to channel the general gestalt of the complaints against the Mona run regarding Greyhawk, it would be:
A. Bait and switch. What were we promised? Lots of Greyhawk, default setting! What did we get? MOAR REALMZ!

B. Greyhawkery. Yes, he was a fan. But he ended up incorporating and validating material that many people weren't happy with; in short, he didn't build from 1983 (WOG); he used a lot of the post-WOG stuff (like From the Ashes and The Adventure Begins) that people weren't as keen on.

C. Timelines; the whole 576/591 CY makes a difference.

But despite my misgivings about aspects of it, the general concept is good.

 

[FXR]

I guess I am a bit confused when I hear Greyhawk Talk because a majority of it seems to revolve around "We don't want to include X because there aren't any X in Greyhawk. e.g. Dragonborn in general or Drow PCs)". If you wanted to play in a setting that does stick to the "original" D&D assumptions on things of this nature, then all the power to you, but I can't see it making any sense to add into a very limited release schedule a book that essentially says "Here is a gaming world you can use where you only use 50% of our previously published content".

That's one of the reason I tought WotC would never publish such a book, but Theros, a setting with no elves, gnomes or dragonborns, showed otherwise.

 

[coolAlias]

As you noted, Greyhawk material was already waning by 1985 - that was 35 years ago. That means that Greyhawk fans are generally in the 40+ age category... which seems to be around 11% of the current D&D player base.

Not 40+ just yet!

Besides, surely there are plenty of young grognards-in-the-making that could make a Greyhawk : Revival profitable?

 

[Cadence]

I'm sorry, but it seems the demographics are no longer with you on this one.

Let us review: (WotC - Comparing EN World's Demographics to the D&D Community's)

As you noted, Greyhawk material was already waning by 1985 - that was 35 years ago. That means that Greyhawk fans are generally in the 40+ age category... which seems to be around 11% of the current D&D player base.

Greyhawk fans may be vocal, but they no longer hold dominance of gaming's economic pie. It hardly makes sense to put such resources to a project targeting them, considering how critical you note they are.

Are the older generations the ones that warped society so that they could have the money to spend on such things though (instead of say universal coverage and stuff like that)? Maybe Greyhawk just needs the prestige treatment to get the higher price point to take advantage of what its part of the market share brings.

 

[TwoSix]

Greyhawk is preserved. You can find the maps online easily, and you can get most of the old products for it on DM's Guild.

This isn't an argument for how to preserve Greyhawk, it's an argument how to grow the setting into greater prominence among younger gamers.