D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

[Cadence]

Would a boxed set of a bunch of high quality maps (with a digital key to go with them) and a nicely illustrated book of the famous NPCs be a seller?

 

[R_J_K75]

Pictured L to R:
Gryrax, Yagrax, and Zagig Yragerne.

Does that make Kerry King Vecna?

 

[Wishbone]

The pattern for setting books seem to be having content that can be ported to people's games regardless of if they choose to run the setting. Greyhawk already seems to have been stripped for parts and put into baseline D&D—most of what I knew about Greyhawk came from NPC's like Iggwilv and Vecna which got pulled from the setting and genericized in recent editions.

What sort of mechanics and player-facing options would Greyhawk offer as a hook for people who don't have exposure to it? Make it the swords and sorcery world with more gritty rulesets? If the setting helped form the assumptions of baseline D&D then it seems like the justification to publishing more material is to increase the exposure of a setting most people who learned to play in the last few editions are only dimly familiar with.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The pattern for setting books seem to be having content that can be ported to people's games regardless of if they choose to run the setting. Greyhawk already seems to have been stripped for parts and put into baseline D&D—most of what I knew about Greyhawk came from NPC's like Iggwilv and Vecna which got pulled from the setting and genericized in recent editions.

What sort of mechanics and player-facing options would Greyhawk offer as a hook for people who don't have exposure to it? Make it the swords and sorcery world? If the setting helped form the assumptions of baseline D&D then it seems like the justification to publishing more material is to increase the exposure of a setting most people who learned to play in the last few editions are only dimly familiar with.

Great questions!

1. Include a Rogue's Gallery of, well, famous characters from the past; you can use the 1e Rogue's Gallery as a starting point.

2. Include a variant artifact table, with artifacts from the 1e DMG.

3. Provide mechanical options for swords & sorcery, gritty play- increase mechanical options for martial classes, more limited spellcasting. Basically a way to "fine tune" your world to more gritty and S&S by default.

4. And the updated bells & whistles (Suel Monks, Greyhawk panetheon, etc.).


But that's just one way of doing it; there are many others. I could see someone doing a good job in the other direction by upping the "gonzo" factor and using Barrier Peaks and the Boot Hill / Gamma World crossovers to make Greyhawk a real "cross roads" type of setting.

 

[R_J_K75]

The pattern for setting books seem to be having content that can be ported to people's games regardless of if they choose to run the setting. Greyhawk already seems to have been stripped for parts and put into baseline D&D—most of what I knew about Greyhawk came from NPC's like Iggwilv and Vecna which got pulled from the setting and genericized in recent editions.

What sort of mechanics and player-facing options would Greyhawk offer as a hook for people who don't have exposure to it? Make it the swords and sorcery world with more gritty rulesets? If the setting helped form the assumptions of baseline D&D then it seems like the justification to publishing more material is to increase the exposure of a setting most people who learned to play in the last few editions are only dimly familiar with.

I only played Greyhawk in one campaign. It was boring and generic. Even the Realms are pretty generic but I just couldnt get into Greyhawk. There wasnt anything that set it apart as far as rules. At least FR has wild and dead magic for example.

 

[LordEntrails]

Sure, the past might be a foreign country, but the most vociferous objectors are often the people with most familiarity- those that continue to run 1e or retroclones in Greyhawk.

Which I tried to, briefly, address here;

Sure, they may still be playing in that world, but it is one they traveled to decades ago, that were part of their youth, that in part shaped who they are.

As for;

I don't think your explanation fully covers it.

Absolutely agree, I was already less concise than I wanted so I left it where I did.

In short, to me to resistance is not about 'accuracy' or 'canon' or anything else. It's about emotional attachment to a time and place that only exists in each person's/group's heart.

 

[Eyes of Nine]

They could open up Greyhawk on the DM Guild.

I personally think they should open up on DM's Guild all the older settings they plan to do nothing with in the next 5 years.

Great questions!

1. Include a Rogue's Gallery of, well, famous characters from the past; you can use the 1e Rogue's Gallery as a starting point.

2. Include a variant artifact table, with artifacts from the 1e DMG.

3. Provide mechanical options for swords & sorcery, gritty play- increase mechanical options for martial classes, more limited spellcasting. Basically a way to "fine tune" your world to more gritty and S&S by default.

4. And the updated bells & whistles (Suel Monks, Greyhawk panetheon, etc.).

Agree on:

• NPCs/Rogues gallery
• Artifacts
• Subclasses that reflect "Greyhawkiness"

Don't care much about S&S mechanics.

But would also add:

• Gazeteer. Take the 1e Gazeteer (looking at my folio right now), and double the content
• Pantheon
• Dig deeper into spells, especially those created by legendary Greyhawk NPCs like Bigby; as well as new NPCs.
• Lots of new awesome art - this is the biggest part of the budget and is what requires someone like WotC's resources.
• Reprint of Darlene's Map at .7m x 1m AS WELL AS a modern updated map by one of our modern cartographers, such as Jonathan Roberts (created the Westeros map)
• Intro adventure, for 1-3rd level characters.

Of course, that's basically a setting book just like Wildemount or Eberron.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm sorry, but it seems the demographics are no longer with you on this one.

Let us review: (WotC - Comparing EN World's Demographics to the D&D Community's)

As you noted, Greyhawk material was already waning by 1985 - that was 35 years ago. That means that Greyhawk fans are generally in the 40+ age category... which seems to be around 11% of the current D&D player base.

Greyhawk fans may be vocal, but they no longer hold dominance of gaming's economic pie. It hardly makes sense to put such resources to a project targeting them, considering how critical you note they are.

Their kids are now often hitting their 20s and are primary players of this game. It's the combination of the older original generation and the youngest new generation which encapsulates a desire for a new Greyhawk. The youngsters have been hearing about it since they started playing from their parents.

 

[Minigiant]

I find the parallels to Nentir Vale very interesting.

I find Nentir Vale is Greyhawk with an easier pantheon/cosmos and lesser named NPCs and places.
It's Oerth with even more left blank.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

In short, to me to resistance is not about 'accuracy' or 'canon' or anything else. It's about emotional attachment to a time and place that only exists in each person's/group's heart.

I didn't mean to be dismissive- I think nostalgia plays some part of it; nothing that is ever released will replace those carefree moments of youth, or those early loves, or the time you had the Cars' debut album playing on the hi-fi as you were spelunking through G3.

But I don't think it's just nostalgia. 5e has mined a lot of D&D's past and, for the most part, it's been okay. A lot of the old guard has returned and played it. I think that the specific issues I outline w/r/t Greyhawk, play a large part as well. I think that there's a general lack of trust.

I think people worry that WoTC will just use it as another Realms- and that's not what people (or the old fans) want. I'd prefer a fresh take than turning it into another generic fantasy setting.

Again, IMO.