For the Record

[Lancelot]

I think I would have gone the Zombie Horde route [Open Grave] instead. You get the same effect (masses of zombies swarming the party), but with considerably better mechanics than level 1 minions.

Heck, we recently had a level 1 party clear out 22 zombie rotters (and a non-minion "zombie lord") in 2 rounds. Given they didn't use any daily powers, I feel reasonably confident that (with a bit of terrain so that they're not completely surrounded) they could have easily handled 50 rotters, and maybe more.

Throwing a tightly-bunched swarm of level 1 minions at a level 11 controller is pretty much "free XP"...

 

[ExploderWizard]

So whats the point of minions again other than to see how many balloons can be popped with a single pin?

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

So whats the point of minions again other than to see how many balloons can be popped with a single pin?

The first is fun. Lots of carnage is very often fun.

Second, a lot of the AoE suited to taking them out in droves come from Encounter powers and Daily powers. You can sometimes shred a 50 minions before they have a chance to attack, but you're definitely burning a resource to do it. Tactical decision point.

Besides, the controllers need SOME way to have a reasonable body/damage count. Some of the Defenders have better damage than controllers if you don't have those crazy piles of minions occasionally. Without fights that include MANY targets, there's basically no point in a controller role. You could just make them into strikers (the WoW model, basically).

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

So whats the point of minions again other than to see how many balloons can be popped with a single pin?

I honestly think that the minion idea was born from old school DnD, where you could wipe out a multitude of low level foes with Cone of Cold, Fireball and the like. Since they cleaned up the multiple dice mechanic, it seems like that they wanted to still allow players to cut through swaths of foes still without jeopardizing the core conceits behind the dice mechanics of 4E.

...not that I agree with it's implimentation, but it seems a reasonable theory.

 

[ExploderWizard]

The first is fun. Lots of carnage is very often fun.

Second, a lot of the AoE suited to taking them out in droves come from Encounter powers and Daily powers. You can sometimes shred a 50 minions before they have a chance to attack, but you're definitely burning a resource to do it. Tactical decision point.

Besides, the controllers need SOME way to have a reasonable body/damage count. Some of the Defenders have better damage than controllers if you don't have those crazy piles of minions occasionally. Without fights that include MANY targets, there's basically no point in a controller role. You could just make them into strikers (the WoW model, basically).

Ok, so the major usefulness of a whole combat role depends on the DM tossing out enough free kills to give the ego enough fodder to make them not regret thier character choice.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

It really depends on the circumstances. Minions can be used for mobs, can be used to represent the chaos of battle, can be used to represent a weaker creature, can be used to represent special circumstances (a unaware guard getting backstabbed for example).

 

[Nifft]

56 zombies killed in one attack.

That does sound like a record.

Thanks for the data, -- N

 

[Harlekin]

So whats the point of minions again other than to see how many balloons can be popped with a single pin?

Story reasons. You may want the heroes to hold the pass or survive the Zombie apocalypse or flee form the goblin horde. Attacking the group with a large force and making the fight somewhat challenging but not overwhelming requires minions.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Ok, so the major usefulness of a whole combat role depends on the DM tossing out enough free kills to give the ego enough fodder to make them not regret thier character choice.

Minions of appropriate level do more damage and have better defenses than lowballing with low level enemies.

They are not simply free kills under optimal circumstances (at least only a percentage of them are). You will miss some of them. Some of them will attack you before you can burn through all of them. And when they hit you, that's another resource consumed (2 or 3 really: hit points, healing surges, and possibly Leader powers to proc those surges).

Plus, every scrap of literature or cinema in the genre is loaded to the gills with minions: enemies who die as soon as the heroes take a solid shot at them, but can actually harm the heroes.

In the previous editions I've played, the only way to face "overwhelming numbers" is with lowballing. The horde of level 1 critters thing. If they have to roll a 20 to even hit the hero... there's nothing overwhelming about them. There is no real danger. But a horde of level-appropriate minions? That can become VERY scary. And it's downright horrifying if the controller rolls poorly on the first attack or two.

 

[FireLance]

So whats the point of minions again other than to see how many balloons can be popped with a single pin?

The same point as sending masses of low-hit point monsters against the party in any edition of D&D. Whether it's 100 orc drudges (4e) or 100 1st-level orc warriors (3e) or 100 orcs (previous editions), the 11th-level wizard/magic-user (any edition) will probably have a field day.

However, I do think the game could use an intermediate class of monsters that straddle the gap between minions and standard monsters (and there are quite a few approaches to this in the House Rules forum and other places, including my own adjuncts).