D&D General For those that find Alignment useful, what does "Lawful" mean to you

[Crimson Longinus]

I see, you dont like the character reducing the alignment down to one specific way of expressing it.

No. I don't like alignment, period. But I'm not sure you understood my criticism of the reward method... If you get rewarded for playing your alignment, more you do it and in more ways you do it, more you get rewarded.

For me, that is the nature of roleplay. To play someone who isnt oneself, it can help to focus on one thing that the character is about.

Alignment tends to be vague. Except for aggregious violations of it, most of its behavior goes unnoticed. Giving the character a specific action that expresses its alignment details the flavor of the character, and helps the DM notice when it happens.

Giving character some specific quirks and/or expressions of personality traits are good ways to start building a character. I just don't feel alignment is much help there, it is way too vague and contradictory. So yes, I think choosing things like "honourable" or even "I always keep my word" are much more helpful than "lawful."

In other words, logic resembles chaotic. Emotions resemble lawful.

I don't think that a lot of people would agree with you on that. I'm not going to go into actual psychology here, but at least on the level of general perception of thematics, the overwhelming consensus is the opposite.

 

[Yaarel]

I don't think that a lot of people would agree with you on that. I'm not going to go into actual psychology here, but at least on the level of general perception of thematics, the overwhelming consensus is the opposite.

Think of D&D rules-lawyers. Being logical, they are chaotic and deviate/individuate from expected norms of gameplay.

Logic is a means to dislocate, to step outside of the subjective, and to reimagine new possibilities.

A scientist changes society rather than continues the traditions of society.

Logic is chaotic.

 

[Maxperson]

Think of D&D rules-lawyers. Being logical, they are chaotic and deviate/individuate from expected norms of gameplay.

Logic is a means to dislocate, to step outside of the subjective, and to reimagine new possibilities.

A scientist changes society rather than continues the traditions of society.

Logic is chaotic.

That doesn't compute, like at all.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Logic is chaotic.

Logic is predictable and deterministic. Mathematics are the ultimate expression of the logic. Given identical axioms, two logical actors will always compute the same answer to a mathematical problem. This is the literal opposite of chaotic.

But I guess you have very effectively demonstrated the futility of trying to define law and chaos. If one can try to argue that logic is chaos, we might as well argue that randomness is law, collapsing the whole thing into one Dadaistic mess!

 

[Maxperson]

But I guess you have very effectively demonstrated the futility of trying to define law and chaos.

Yes, because anytime someone is wrong about something, it's futile to try and define that thing.

 

[Yaarel]

Mathematics are the ultimate expression of the logic. Given identical axioms, two logical actors will always compute the same answer to a mathematical problem. This is the literal opposite of chaotic.

First of all, Gödels Theorem.

Second of all, paradigm shifts. Reason causes revolutions.

But I guess you have very effectively demonstrated the futility of trying to define law and chaos. If one can try to argue that logic is chaos, we might as well argue that randomness is law, collapsing the whole thing into one Dadaistic mess!

The problem is the D&D terms were nonsensical in the first place.

Normally, lawful contrasts criminal, and order contrasts chaos. The nonsensical juxtaposition between lawful and chaotic guaranteed confusion and misunderstanding.

Meanwhile, the defacto ethical application is between group and individual.

 

[Maxperson]

First of all, Gödels Theorem.

Second of all, paradigm shifts. Reason causes revolutions.

You're not going to be able to prove that order = chaos. Your argument also means that someone who is LG and stands against a tradition that harms innocents is really chaotic, since he's changing society, rather than continuing the traditions of society.

"A scientist changes society rather than continues the traditions of society."

 

[Yaarel]

You're not going to be able to prove that order = chaos. Your argument also means that someone who is LG and stands against a tradition that harms innocents is really chaotic, since he's changing society, rather than continuing the traditions of society.

"A scientist changes society rather than continues the traditions of society."

What I am saying is:

Alignment is about ethical behavior.

Alignment has nothing to do with math.

Any definitions that assume L-versus-C means predictable-versus-random, will collapse into nonsense.

 

[Flamestrike]

But what if a person is reckless and impulsive but respects honour and tradition? What if they're logical, dependable and predictable, but despise tradition and honour as outdated illogical nonsense?

If you have a code of honor that you often recklessly and impulsively breach, you're Chaotic, because you don't respect (and adhere to) your code.

Its the same deal if you're an ethical, kind and caring person, who rapes and murders the odd person. You're Evil because you're a monster.

 

[Maxperson]

What I am saying is:

Alignment is about ethical behavior.

Alignment has nothing to do with math.

Any definitions that assume L-versus-C means predictable-versus-random, will collapse into nonsense.

Alignment is a lot more than just ethics. It's also very strongly behavior patterns. In fact, a good way to look at is that the good/evil axis is more about ethics and the law/chaos axis is more about behavior patterns.