D&D General For those that find Alignment useful, what does "Lawful" mean to you

[CreamCloud0]

A "personal code" is by definition Chaotic.

However, the confusion about a "code" happens because of the insanity of Lawful confusing predictable, and of Chaotic confusing random. This nonsensical predictable-versus-random is WHY the align system keeps on failing edition after edition.

A personal code doesn’t mean they’re chaotic, Lawful should mean IMO that they have as set of rules or values that they consistently follow, regardless of their origins (of the code)
It should mean that if you hypothetically knew the complete potential circumstances they’re going into as well as their code you should be able to predict their resulting actions with a significant degree off accuracy each time

 

[Zubatcarteira]

If your code is about doing whatever you want and killing people randomly, are you LE or CE?

 

[CreamCloud0]

If your code is about doing whatever you want and killing people randomly, are you LE or CE?

Depends how intricate it is, if your code is just ‘i do what i want’ that’s not really any sort of code, but if you have multiple conditions for what justifies you to murder and if-then clauses and suchlike that was consistently adhered to both for when it is and isn’t allowed to murder I would consider that lawful, neutral or evil would depend on the specific extent and conditions that allowed murder.

And it’s not like ‘good’ aligned players don’t freely murderize bandits and thieves more often than not when they fight them and that’s justified because they’re bandits and thieves

 

[Yaarel]

Why would you peg Thor as LG?

I am coming from a Norwegian perspective. The main animistic personifications in Norway are Þórr, Freyr, Nǫrðr, and Ullr, in that order. Freyja is prominant in some regions, and Baldr shows up here and there. Óðinn is unimportant and viewed as treacherous, but can be a muse. Þórr (Tor) is by far the most celebrated aspect of nature.

Tor is the summer thunderstorms. Lightning is his hammer. Steep mountain cliffs are often named for him because of their breathtaking view of the sky. They have a contemplative mood.

His Lawful aspect is primary. He is the enforcer of oaths, and a punisher of those who violate oaths. The cyclical weather maintains the cosmic order that makes human life possible.

Altho good versus evil isnt really a Norse thing, Tor explicitly defends human civilization from the cruelties of nature (certain jotnar). So he is arguably Good. Hence Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good.

Tor has a champion vibe, stepping in to defend others.

Tor rarely deals with humans on a personal level, and the few times he does might work out less well for the humans. Even so, he considers certain human individuals to be his "friend".

His wife "Sif", means, "in-law", a phenomenon where a person gains new family, not by blood, but by a marital oath.

Sometimes Tor resorts to trickery, but doesnt speak lies. He did have Loki tell lies for him tho, in an emergency.

His rage is a Personality Flaw.

Tor is literally any and every thunderstorm, but can manifest in the form of a human.

(D&D can stat his human form. I stat him as an epic tier Paladin, but substitute thunder and lightning instead of radiant damage. He knows magic and occasionally uses it. He probably has levels in Bard, but instead, I give Charm Person and Fear to his Paladin oath spells, and let the Paladin represent his magic, especially the warrior magic. The mother of Tor is Jord (Jǫrð), earth itself, the most powerful jotnar. Tor is extremely strong in his own right (Strength 24?), and his hammer makes him superlatively strong (30?), more than any jotnar. Tor is mortal and can die, and is fated to die.)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If you have a code of honor that you often recklessly and impulsively breach, you're Chaotic, because you don't respect (and adhere to) your code.

Its the same deal if you're an ethical, kind and caring person, who rapes and murders the odd person. You're Evil because you're a monster.

But you can easily be reckless in without constantly breaking your traditions and honour code.

Consider Klingons. In their culture might makes right; you can become a captain (or other authority figure) by killing the previous office holder. The nation is bound together by personal oaths of loyalty between individuals and houses. Individual officers or lords often go rogue, taking their ship and crew into violent pirate adventures. They're impulsive and violent. These are chaotic traits. Yet they're very honourable and respect their traditions to extreme degree, they place massive importance to their history and bloodline. These are lawful traits. And deciding whether Klingons 'actually' are lawful, chaotic or neutral wouldn't improve our understanding of them; if anything, it would obscure things and might lead to downplaying the aspects of their culture that contradict the chosen alignment.

 

[le Redoutable]

is liar/Bluff a Chaotic concept ?

 

[CreamCloud0]

is liar/Bluff a Chaotic concept ?

Not quite in my opinion, Lawful characters might be less willing to lie due to a code of honour or some such but that is influenced more by the idea of lawful good and truth being a virtue, a lawful evil (EDIT: lawful neutral has a good chance to do this too) character might lie through their teeth to your face but there’s nothing in the rules about lying so why shouldn’t they? or it they never gave their word to tell the truth then they’re not breaking any promises...

 

[le Redoutable]

Not quite in my opinion, Lawful characters might be less willing to lie due to a code of honour or some such but that is influenced more by the idea of lawful good and truth being a virtue, a lawful evil character might lie through their teeth to your face but there’s nothing in the rules about lying so why shouldn’t they? or it they never gave their word to tell the truth then they’re not breaking any promises...

that looks true

 

[Maxperson]

If your code is about doing whatever you want and killing people randomly, are you LE or CE?

That would depend on if it is followed reliably and consistently. If it is, then the code isn't random by the way, it's with purpose and deliberation. If its truly random, it's not a code.

For a person with a personal code of conduct and/or ethics to be chaotic, they would have to break their own code fairly often.

 

[Maxperson]

Consider Klingons. In their culture might makes right; you can become a captain (or other authority figure) by killing the previous office holder.

It's not truly a might make right culture, though. While the first officer can become captain by defeating the captain, lower officers cannot, so there are rules to it. Further, the first officer cannot just decide one day that he wants to be captain and kill off the current captain as that would be dishonorable. He has to have a valid reason that justifies it, such as the captain acting dishonorably or showing incompetence as leader. Basically it's the same as on the Enterprise when the captain can be relieved of duty, but with the added requirement of "Trial by combat."

The nation is bound together by personal oaths of loyalty between individuals and houses. Individual officers or lords often go rogue, taking their ship and crew into violent pirate adventures. They're impulsive and violent. These are chaotic traits. Yet they're very honourable and respect their traditions to extreme degree, they place massive importance to their history and bloodline. These are lawful traits. And deciding whether Klingons 'actually' are lawful, chaotic or neutral wouldn't improve our understanding of them; if anything, it would obscure things and might lead to downplaying the aspects of their culture that contradict the chosen alignment.

As a species, they would be lawful as most of their behaviors involve honor, tradition, loyalty, bloodlines and such. What you are defining as chaos, really isn't if you look closely. First, violence is not chaos. Violence is on the good/evil axis. WHY the violence is happening could be lawful/chaotic, and with Klingons it's because battle is honorable and glorious, and is part of their tradition. You get more honor and glory for going into battle with worse odds, which is why you get those "rogue"(they aren't really) captains who go into battles alone.

As individuals you can judge law and chaos for Klingons. Worf more strongly values traditions and honor than many other Klingons. The Duras family acted dishonorably and treacherously and as individuals were chaotic. They were also few in number since they went against most of what the Klingons stood for.