Force Orb: Secondary attacks on a miss?

[eleran]

There should be no reason to worry that players would abuse the use of a level 1 power. If the floor in your game is equivalent to "the darkness" (cheese hehe ) then let players know that if they try to target it. Otherwise, no harm, no foul; let them use Force orb as an area-effectish spell.

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying here, but where does the line get drawn? If I let a player hit a 1 square area of the floor and attempt to do secondary damage to everyone adjacent to that square, what stops him from next time targeting a 2x2 square area of floor to get a bigger group of critters?


please understand. I am not trying to be a contrarian. We all know the types of rules lawyers that exist out there that will try to do the very things I am asking about.

 

[Lacyon]

In that case why not decide the entire floor is one object and therefore be able to strike everyone in a 100' x 100' room? I don't object to the interpretation of hitting a square per se, it's the slippery slope i want to stay off of.

This seems more like a legitimate concern, and it doesn't just apply to floors. Targeting a Huge creature gives you a lot more potential targets as well.

But allowing people to target squares actually closes the loophole, by limiting what the player can do instead of having a couple dozen first-level wizards say "I target the Earth with my Force Orb and make a secondary attack against every enemy adjacent to it," and genociding the entire kobold race.

 

[eleran]

This seems more like a legitimate concern, and it doesn't just apply to floors. Targeting a Huge creature gives you a lot more potential targets as well.

But allowing people to target squares actually closes the loophole, by limiting what the player can do instead of having a couple dozen first-level wizards say "I target the Earth with my Force Orb and make a secondary attack against every enemy adjacent to it," and genociding the entire kobold race.

Hmmm, this could be the answer to my dilemma in a Dragonlance campaign where I have sworn an oath to carry out Kendercide.

 

[frankthedm]

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying here, but where does the line get drawn? If I let a player hit a 1 square area of the floor and attempt to do secondary damage to everyone adjacent to that square, what stops him from next time targeting a 2x2 square area of floor to get a bigger group of critters?

Because that is exactly where it stops. A square. not two or three or four. One. Uno. Ichi.

 

[eleran]

Because that is exactly where it stops. A square. not two or three or four. One. Uno. Ichi.

And I can accept that, as a player and a DM. Will just have to keep a 6-pack of whoop-ass on hand for the players that can't.

 

[abeattie]

This seems more like a legitimate concern, and it doesn't just apply to floors. Targeting a Huge creature gives you a lot more potential targets as well.

But allowing people to target squares actually closes the loophole, by limiting what the player can do instead of having a couple dozen first-level wizards say "I target the Earth with my Force Orb and make a secondary attack against every enemy adjacent to it," and genociding the entire kobold race.

I'd proably tell the player that target the earth to pick an object -- since the earth is a collection of discreet objects -- ditto the house or the road . . . etc.

While I suspect that targeting huge creatures with 1st level encounter powers may turn out to be a waste of time, that is a scary concept -- that leaves me thinking there are either rules we don't know about that limit that effect, or that this power needs a better AoE for the secondary than "adjacent."

 

[eleran]

I just want to say that I appreciate everybody's input. This has been a really good discussion thread.

 

[Vysirez]

I would have no problem with the wizard targeting the ground or a square. He is basically just using an encounter power to do slightly more damage then an at will power, with a different, possibly better, element(Force vs Fire).

My guess is that the reason this spell was not designed as a burst is not to make it an all or nothing, but more so that you could have less damage on your secondary attack. I'm not 100% sure on this since the secondary could have been made an effect if they wanted it to go off no matter what. However since we aren't talking about getting the secondary for no cost, rather we are loosing out on some damage in order to make sure the secondary goes off.

To be honest I would be a bit disappointed if I missed with it. I mean with it's all or nothing state, I have to say it feels a bit weak for an encounter power. Specifically when compared with Scorching burst. I would be tempted to HR that the secondary effect goes off no matter what.

 

[vagabundo]

... Bandits around a campfire. Target the campfire. That seems non-contrived.

And yeah, that's fair - no targetting 'The Castle' or 'The City'

It seems to me that this was what the spell was designed for, it does say Object in the description.

I cannot see why people have a problem with this use of the spell. It is not a game breaker. I'm sure some conservative Wizard character will always target the floor at the targets feet.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

For those concerned about realism (Not me!) I'd just point out that hitting the ground with a straight ranged attack can quickly become much harder than hitting a standing target as range increase.

Unless you benefit from elevation, the 5' square surface becomes a smaller target to shoot at than a standing man very, very fast fast. If you don't believe me, draw a 5' square on the floor and progressively move away from it. If you have a paintball gun or something you can test for yourself that it quickly become very hard to hit. There's a reason soldier drop on the ground as soon as they hear gunshot.

If it helps your suspension of disebelief, you can add the notion that the force orb could conceivably bounce of the ground if it hit at an angle instead of stright on, thus making it a bad choice. Paintballs certainly can do that.

Anyway, for my part, I'm fine with the necessity to hit the target first with the primary attack.