Forcing enemies to shift

[arscott]

But it's a moot point, as I suspect Tide of Iron will be size restricted.

It's in the description of the power. You can only Push someone who is one size category larger than you or smaller.

On being pushed into lava pits: In the D&D minis game, if an attack moves a character into an illegal space, then the attacker rolls again. If that second attack is successful, then the character is destroyed, but if not it ends its movement in the last legal space.

I've heard instances of that rule being used in 4e, but I'm taking that with a grain of salt--Already seen enough DDM rules used in 4e when they weren't actually the same (Conceal/Invisibility, nat 20 on saves, etc.)

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

The arguments against 4th edition in this thread are complete failures because they are contradicted by the explicitly printed descriptions of shifting powers in the 4e rules that we've been given previews of. They are specious and invalid.

Tide of Iron, a physical shifting skill, explicitly states that you can only shift something one size category larger than you are, your size, or smaller. This is explicitly stated in the rules. Laid out in black in white. No exceptions.

By the 4th edition RAW, THERE IS LITERALLY NO WAY for a Halfling warrior to shift a gargantuan dragon (unless the halfling is magically inflated to one size category lower or an equal or larger size category).

Please read the rules available before you comment on them, because it will save you a lot of angst, and spare the rest of us having to debunk these incorrect statements over and over again.

 

[Mortellan]

I think all the statements have been helpful. I originally asked if a halfling could shift(slide? shrug) a gargantuan dragon. class meant nothing to me, i was only concerned with size. seems there are some size provisions out there, others aren't. now having read the posts, i am concerned over terrain and now feel that the DM needs to be careful in not overdoing it b/c if so, movement becomes a weapon as much if not more than gear and magic. even going prone is not very fun if combat is anything like 3.x was tactically.

 

[Revinor]

By the 4th edition RAW, THERE IS LITERALLY NO WAY for a Halfling warrior to shift a gargantuan dragon (unless the halfling is magically inflated to one size category lower or an equal or larger size category).

Dwarf warlord (monster), can push 3 with it's melee attack without size limitations. It is vs AC weapon attack, so looks quite 'physical'. I have no doubts we will see martial melee push/pull attacks without size limitations in most martial classes.

Fact that somebody have chosen wrong example, doesn't mean his worry is without any point. Stating that it is 'failure/contradicted/specious/invalid' won't solve the problem - try to see behind battling particular argument and think about the real issue.

 

[Dunamin]

I think all the statements have been helpful. I originally asked if a halfling could shift(slide? shrug) a gargantuan dragon. class meant nothing to me, i was only concerned with size. seems there are some size provisions out there, others aren't. now having read the posts, i am concerned over terrain and now feel that the DM needs to be careful in not overdoing it b/c if so, movement becomes a weapon as much if not more than gear and magic. even going prone is not very fun if combat is anything like 3.x was tactically.

I wouldn't worry too much. Traps are given a level to estimate how dangerous they are, so you would know that a Pit Trap of 200 ft depth likely is too deadly for a low-level party.

As is, the example of the rolling Indiana Jones-like Crushing Rock is suited for level 2, and I see it as significant but not the be-all and end-all when included in one of the D&D XP preview encounters with level 1 play.

 

[FadedC]

Dwarf warlord (monster), can push 3 with it's melee attack without size limitations. It is vs AC weapon attack, so looks quite 'physical'. I have no doubts we will see martial melee push/pull attacks without size limitations in most martial classes.

Fact that somebody have chosen wrong example, doesn't mean his worry is without any point. Stating that it is 'failure/contradicted/specious/invalid' won't solve the problem - try to see behind battling particular argument and think about the real issue.

You mean the dwarf warlord who's incomplete stats were taken from the back of a miniature's card that have already been found to not give the full details on powers?

 

[Revinor]

You mean the dwarf warlord who's incomplete stats were taken from the back of a miniature's card that have already been found to not give the full details on powers?

The same one. Goblin picador is also coming from miniature cards I think and it has size limitations.

Are you saying that there will be no melee power in PHB/MM which forces movement on enemy without size limitations? Maybe. It is internet, we can play the game of 'maybe'. Maybe such powers exist, how will you explain them to yourself/your players? Or are you so sure that don't exist (because of not making sense) that you will give up on 4th edition if they are there after all?

We are on this boards because we like speculation. We have to extrapolate from very small pieces. If you are going to cry every time 'there is no proof for that, so it is not going to happen', it might be a very brutal awakening in June. A lot more reasonable way is to say 'we don't know if it is a case, but if it is, I would explain it in the way A, or house rule it in the way of B".

At least we are not getting arguments "It is still in development" anymore.

 

[FadedC]

The same one. Goblin picador is also coming from miniature cards I think and it has size limitations.

Are you saying that there will be no melee power in PHB/MM which forces movement on enemy without size limitations? Maybe. It is internet, we can play the game of 'maybe'. Maybe such powers exist, how will you explain them to yourself/your players? Or are you so sure that don't exist (because of not making sense) that you will give up on 4th edition if they are there after all?

Yep the miniature cards are fairly erratic in their accuracy much like the 3.0 miniatures cards.

But no I can't say for sure that there are no strength based melee powers that push people around irregardless of size, just like you can't say for sure that there are. Similarly we can't prove or disprove the existance of flying reindoor or talking dogs. Just because none have been seen yet, doesn't meen they don't exist.

In all fairness though I wouldn't be surprised if one makes it through the cracks and does exist. Oversights like forgetting to add size category maximums tend that exist in every edition of every game ever made anywhere. Dms either add their own errate or do not depending on how strongly they feel.

 

[GnomeWorks]

Where are the abilities that dictate the behaviour of enemies (without it being a charm or hold) as you say?

I am not talking necessarily about the exact effect of the abilities in question, I am talking about how the in-game effect is explained.

Forcing enemies to shift is fine, so long as it has a solid explanation behind it. Magic abilities, I'm willing to take at face value, most of the time; martial abilities, I'm a little more leery of.

 

[Wiman]

The only thing I've seen here is the push into a pit equals death, in the miniature rules this is true, in 4e it certainly will not be. Some of the blogs (I can't remember which) explain that the game allows for far more heroic actions with skills...I seem to remember a blog play test report where a group of adventurers are traveling along in a mining cart jumping gaps in the tracks and the players are not as concerned with falling for some reason. That being said shifts won't be insta kill for anyone except the baddly wounded or minions IMO.