D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[MG.0]

Even going to a plane of existence that lines up with their alignment probably wouldn't be that great; if you disbelieve actively present gods to that degree, living for eternity in a place filled with extraplanar beings that are more distant from your world while so attuned to their beliefs that they were willing to become beings that embody them even more than the gods do is likely not going to be a particularly pleasant prospect.

The outer planes are infinite and represent alignment only, not specific beliefs. Even the gods hold only small realms within them. As such, there's no good reason souls wouldn't gravitate to a part of a plane that suits them most closely. In fact it makes sense since they already gravitate toward the proper plane itself.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Which was also ironic because even during his trial Cyric was spreading so much strife that he got the greater powers on the brink of an all out brawl, which would have had cataclysmic conesquences

This is true. Cyric after getting his sanity back (prior to that he would not have been able to put forth a good defense) pointed out that even even while he was insane he was still worthy of his title of god of strife. Giving the fact that he nearly started a war between the greater gods and the fact that he destroyed the love of Kelemvor and Mystara. Pointing out that if he destroyed the love between two greater gods he can for sure cause lots of Strife in the material plane. Which managed to convince the majority of gods to let him keep his powers. (Even Kelemvor and Mystara who hate him.)

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I'm pretty sure none of the original content created by the video games should be taken as canon, even for the edition in which it was created.

 

[sunshadow21]

The outer planes are infinite and represent alignment only, not specific beliefs. Even the gods hold only small realms within them. As such, there's no good reason souls wouldn't gravitate to a part of a plane that suits them most closely. In fact it makes sense since they already gravitate toward the proper plane itself.

As large as the Faerun pantheon is, they don't have to go to the outer planes to do that; between all the different racial and the chaos created by the Time of Troubles, there's pretty much a god to fit all of the array of beliefs and alignments Kelemvor would have to judge. Just about the only way it wouldn't kick in is if you flat out rejected the basic power structure of the gods and their relationship to their mortal followers. In other words, if you reject the basic structure of the system, you're in trouble; otherwise, Kelemvor probably can and will find some minor deity to place you with. And if you reject the basic structure of how the Fearun gods work, than you're likely going to reject the structure of whereever your soul ends up, because, unless you choose to become a wandering hermit amongst the outer planes, there will always be some kind of structure in place that you will have to deal with. There will be exceptions, but most of the souls that reject the gods are going to reject similar claims of power, which exist everywhere in some form or another, pretty much anywhere else as well. At that point, the Wall is no worse a fate than anything else, even if it isn't at the top of anyone's list of preferences. Occasionally Kelemvor would probably make an exception to the Faithless rule, but it would take some pretty strong arguments to pull off; his job is to judge souls from Faerun based on criteria established by the gods as a whole, and the Wall is the part of the system put in place to deal with extraordinarily levels of stubborn and stupid, regardless of alignment.

Kelemvor could change that part of the system, but would likely be expected to ensure that that aspect of the system remained a viable fate, so automatically sending them to the outer planes still wouldn't be a acceptable option. Regardless of how things work elsewhere in the multiverse, Fearun souls are generally treated as being part of Faerun and will be protected accordingly. Personally, if I were one of the souls that wanted to fight evil but rejected the divinity of the gods, I would find a god whose power and actions I could respect and convince them to accept my soul from the Fugue Plane, and once I was in their realm, I would serve as their agent to the outer planes in a role that would allow me to function more or less like I did on the mortal plane, acknowledging the power, but not necessarily the divinity, of my patron. The god still gets the power of my soul, so the basic power structure is not challenged, and I still get the freedom I desire, probably eventually working my way into the patronage of some being on the outer planes, allowing me to leave the Faerun gods behind. Much, much simpler than trying to deny the gods outright and run into the brickwall that is Faerun divine politics. I would also have no pity for those souls, regardless of their alignment, that were too stupid to avoid the Wall; a single deal that didn't require me to accept anything I didn't want to was all it took to keep me off the Wall, and it's all it would have taken them. Even if they were the most good person I knew, I can't save people from their own stupidity.

 

[MG.0]

And if you reject the basic structure of how the Fearun gods work, than you're likely going to reject the structure of whereever your soul ends up, because, unless you choose to become a wandering hermit amongst the outer planes, there will always be some kind of structure in place that you will have to deal with. There will be exceptions, but most of the souls that reject the gods are going to reject similar claims of power, which exist everywhere in some form or another, pretty much anywhere else as well. At that point, the Wall is no worse a fate than anything else, even if it isn't at the top of anyone's list of preferences.

You assume too much. Take the Beastlands (Happy Hunting Grounds) for example. It is a plane of Neutral-Chaotic Good and while it hosts many gods realms, the basic nature of the plane lacks any kind of power structure or hierarchy powered by ritualistic dogma. Beings of matching alignment are left pretty much to their own devices here, which is as it should be on a plane leaning towards chaos over law.

Occasionally Kelemvor would probably make an exception to the Faithless rule, but it would take some pretty strong arguments to pull off; his job is to judge souls from Faerun based on criteria established by the gods as a whole, and the Wall is the part of the system put in place to deal with extraordinarily levels of stubborn and stupid, regardless of alignment.

Refusing to bow and scrape before a bunch of power leeching petty cretins is not stupidity. Punishing players who wish to play their characters as challengers of the gods is a crappy way to run a campaign. Either you pick a god, or no outer planes for you. I know my players who are in Greyhawk: an eminently better world would be annoyed by the Realms' idiosyncracies (which is one of the reasons we don't play there).

Personally, if I were one of the souls that wanted to fight evil but rejected the divinity of the gods, I would find a god whose power and actions I could respect and convince them to accept my soul from the Fugue Plane, and once I was in their realm, I would serve as their agent to the outer planes in a role that would allow me to function more or less like I did on the mortal plane, acknowledging the power, but not necessarily the divinity, of my patron.

Your personal choices have no bearing on anyone elses. Good luck getting a god to accept you while fundamentally rejecting their divinity: "Um, yeah Tyr, we both know you're just a big fraud but hey, can I work for you?" You assume a level of pragmatism the gods don't often show. Also, some characters would rather overcome or be destroyed rather than serve. That isn't inherently stupid.

Even if they were the most good person I knew, I can't save people from their own stupidity.

Stupidity according to you. I could say it's equally stupid to worship the gods of the Realms, knowing what they do and condone.

Overall, I think the extended cosmology of the Realms was handled very badly over the years. For those players who like to stick to canon material (which I think is stupid, but that's just me) it puts an onus on players to accept a level of religion for their characters that they may be uncomfortable with. I wouldn't ask them to do that any more than I would ask them to play a specific gender, or sexual orientation.

Making players uncomfortable is bad gaming. Making players feel like there is something wrong with them for feeling uncomfortable about a topic is bad gaming.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Stupidity according to you. I could say it's equally stupid to worship the gods of the Realms, knowing what they do and condone.

And I would have no pity for you when you end up in the Wall due to you stubbornly refusing the fundamental rule of the universe. Refusal to adapt will always lead to death or suffering. If you can't adapt you will fall. It's a rule that applies no matter the situation, Lawful, Good, Evil, Chaotic, Neutral, strong or weak. The world you are in, the reality whether it is real or not real. Adepting is something everyone must do.

 

[Hussar]

Overall, I think the extended cosmology of the Realms was handled very badly over the years. For those players who like to stick to canon material (which I think is stupid, but that's just me) it puts an onus on players to accept a level of religion for their characters that they may be uncomfortable with. I wouldn't ask them to do that any more than I would ask them to play a specific gender, or sexual orientation.

Making players uncomfortable is bad gaming. Making players feel like there is something wrong with them for feeling uncomfortable about a topic is bad gaming.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...he-Wall-of-the-Faithless/page43#ixzz3u9dFIlMx

Hang on though. This isn't necessarily true. This impacts no more on how you play your character than the color of your eyes. You're playing a fighter. So, your patron diety is Tyr. It never gets mentioned in game, never comes up, and no one cares, any more than anyone cares what color your character's eyes are. Claiming that this will make players "uncomfortable" is a very big stretch. The game has clerics, druids and paladins that all come part and parcel with a deity of some sort, and warlocks which have a kinda/sorta deity with a very specific relationship and totem barbarians also come with a tribal worship aspect. Almost half the classes come part and parcel with having to "accept a level of religion for their characters".

It's not like this is something buried deep in the game that never comes up. I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of groups out there have at least one character directly tied to a divinity of some sort. Having a setting where religion is actually important and choosing to deny that religion gets you punished, is hardly a major no-no in fantasy.

It's not like religions go out of their way to reward heretics. And that's what this character is. And, to boot, this character is WRONG. That's the point that keeps getting ignored here. "Oh, I don't believe in the gods, the whole thing is a sham" doesn't work when you have actual, reified gods. You can refute their existence all day long, but, you'd be wrong. They are gods. They're right there.

I'm still baffled as to why people think that religions would actually reward heretics. Why on earth would a heretic go to a just afterlife? Being a heretic is just about the biggest sin you can commit in most religions. Whether it's a tribal faith where you are breaking taboo (and generally being either exiled or killed because of it) or a more modern faith. Doesn't matter. No religion rewards heretics. And, Forgotten Realms, because of the cosmology we are using here, only has one religion. Everyone goes to the same afterlife, regardless of their culture. Which means that if you are a heretic in any of the dogmas in FR, you are going to be put in the Wall.

But, as far as making players uncomfortable goes, I'm really not buying that argument. Not when not going to the wall means that you don't have to actively deny the gods. Wow, that was an ugly sentence. Let me try again. You only go to the wall if you actively deny the gods. Simply being not very pious does not grant you the wall. And, I'd have a bigger problem with a character that actively denies the gods being granted ANY divine spell effects. The first time that player received the benefits of a Cure Wounds spell, I'd call him out for the hypocrite he is.

 

[MG.0]

And I would have no pity for you when you end up in the Wall due to you stubbornly refusing the fundamental rule of the universe.

Except it isn't, and your lack of pity changes nothing. Perhaps my characters would pity you when your soul gets shuffled around in the juvenile politics of the Realms' "gods".

My players' characters would rather shatter the rules of the universe than follow them like sheep. I encourage that. It leads to better characters and better games. If we are only allowed to color inside the lines, then what's the point of art?

Bruce Hornsby said it best

 

[MG.0]

This isn't necessarily true. This impacts no more on how you play your character than the color of your eyes.

Maybe to most, but I know some players who don't like dealing with the religion aspect at all. They are not wrong to feel that way.

Having a setting where religion is actually important and choosing to deny that religion gets you punished, is hardly a major no-no in fantasy.

Irrelevant. It's a DM decision that should be based on his players' needs.

And, to boot, this character is WRONG. That's the point that keeps getting ignored here. "Oh, I don't believe in the gods, the whole thing is a sham" doesn't work when you have actual, reified gods. You can refute their existence all day long, but, you'd be wrong. They are gods. They're right there.

No, you are wrong. That isn't the only way to see it. Seeing the "gods" as beings of great power does not imply they are deserving of worship...period. A character who sees their power yet denies them worship isn't wrong.

I'm still baffled as to why people think that religions would actually reward heretics. Why on earth would a heretic go to a just afterlife? Being a heretic is just about the biggest sin you can commit in most religions. Whether it's a tribal faith where you are breaking taboo (and generally being either exiled or killed because of it) or a more modern faith. Doesn't matter. No religion rewards heretics. And, Forgotten Realms, because of the cosmology we are using here, only has one religion. Everyone goes to the same afterlife, regardless of their culture. Which means that if you are a heretic in any of the dogmas in FR, you are going to be put in the Wall.

Irrelevant.

But, as far as making players uncomfortable goes, I'm really not buying that argument.

It doesn't matter if you buy it. It is valid nonetheless. I know players who feel that way.

Edit: The very existence of this thread would seem to bear that out.

And, I'd have a bigger problem with a character that actively denies the gods being granted ANY divine spell effects. The first time that player received the benefits of a Cure Wounds spell, I'd call him out for the hypocrite he is.

Certainly a non-believer wouldn't be able to cast any divine spell, but to withhold effects would be punitive and frankly, crappy DM'ing. Do you prevent clerics from casting healing spells on those inimicable to the cleric's faith? No. it's just a spell effect. There's nothing hypocritical about it either. As I said above, just because they have power means nothing.

 

[Mirtek]

And, Forgotten Realms, because of the cosmology we are using here, only has one religion. Everyone goes to the same afterlife, regardless of their culture. Which means that if you are a heretic in any of the dogmas in FR, you are going to be put in the Wall.

Actually that's only for those under the jurisdiction of the faerunian pantheon. The Celestial Bureaucracy uses a different system to process their dead IIRC and the dead from Zakhara also go through a different system (might even be the standard planar system).

I am not entirely certain what the nulhorandi pantheon does, likely something similiar to what they did in old Egypt.

Do you prevent clerics from casting healing spells on those inimicable to the cleric's faith? No. it's just a spell effect.

Depending on the circumstances, the cleric could certainly find himself denied the renewal of his spells if I were the DM.