D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

Just addressing this one point. Not caring about others. Lack of empathy. We commonly call those sorts of people "sociopaths." I tend to think that someone who lacks empathy and takes no thought for the feelings or well-being of others is a pretty good definition of evil.

AO is the uncaring because Mortals are far far too beneth him to care for. Question do you care about the bugs on the ground. Compared to AO mortals are even less then that. The bugs can do as they please as the insect's owners try and make sure they do cool things, live peacefully, die for their amusement or trying to make their bugs destory another owners bugs. While the Owner's parent (AO) just makes sure they don't break the case containing the bugs and makes sure they are still doing what their stated jobs are.
 

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Of course a Gnome can sneak in there. Arborea is an outer plane you can just plane shift there if you don't use the portal to it's first layer of Arvandor. So yeah the Gnome could go there and I doubt the Elven Gods would have problems with him being there. (Evermeet meanwhile would have a problem as it is an Elves only place. The main branch of the Elven Supremacist Organisation lives there even.)

So we seem agree on this point: you don't need the permission of the elven gods to get to Arvandor via Evermeet. Canonically, creatures have snuck their way in. So when you say this:
And just to tell you won't be welcome in Arvandor unless you worship Elven Deities. Because Arvandor is the domain of the Elven Pantheon, and they have the right to bar anyone from being there if they feel you should not be there. So no you still need the gods for heaven.
That's not really the case. You don't need the elven gods. You can get there if you're sufficiently clever/resourceful/adventurous/etc.

The point where we disagree seems to be this:
But he would not stay in Arborea when he died. His soul would go to the Fugue Plane like everyone else.
There doesn't seem to be any direct support for this hypothesis. Evidence against it includes the 5e DMG's rules for how the afterlife works. The SCAG seems to modify this general state for FR, but there's no implication that it holds weight on the multiverse beyond Toril. Given that FR has always been canonically part of the greater D&D multiverse, the most logical reading would be that on Toril, things work according to the FR rules, and off of that world, things work according to general D&D rules (other worlds may have their own local exceptions). If Drizz'zt boards a Spelljammer and goes to Oerth and is killed by a monk of the Red Brotherhood, does he go to the Fugue Plane? Or would he be subject to normal Greyhawk death rules? If Elminster was shot in a drive-by while hanging out at Ed Greenwood's house, would he go to the Fugue Plane? Or would he be subject to whatever metaphysical rules dominate here in the Real World? (Curiously: if the afterlife works like it did in Dante, Elminster would likely be damned to hell as a pagan, and Ed's first concern should've been sharing the Bible with him!)

Where Canon is silent (as it seems to be here), the needs of the Story can dominate: Toril as a prison for souls is an entirely consistent reading of the setting, and serves the Story we're telling here by creating a compelling and omnipresent antagonist for the heroes to fight against, a bad situation that heroes can change.

On Tyr he can't do :):):):) for you if you don't say thanks to him at least once. He can't cause you to suffer or grant you his favor, because he has no hold on that so called hero's soul. Tyr is the God of Justice and Laws, so he can't break the laws of the planes.
He can pursue Justice by tearing down Kelemvor's wall himself, acknowledging the injustice of such a thing. Otherwise, he's not really a god who cares that much about justice, apparently. Or he cares about his own hide more than he does care about Justice. Which makes him kind of a failure as god of justice, in the end. It'd be like being the god of semi-automatic firearms that shoot delicious chocolate bunnies: you're the god of something that ultimately doesn't exist.

As for the justice of the wall. The guy has days to years to say "Hey Tyr take me in." while in the fugue plane waiting judgment. If he does not then he is a fool honestly. The rule is you go in the wall if you reject the gods, you may not like it or consider it just but it is the rule. Many of the Gods including Tyr probably don't consider it just. But it is outside what they can do and for the most part considered a necessary evil.

One of the thins that people care about when they care about justice is the principle. It doesn't matter if the bar for entry is ridiculously low, it is unjust to have such a bar in principle. A god of Justice should be very concerned about this "necessary evil" that is not actually apparently all that necessary, since it was put in by a thinking being for a purpose.

Even if the Wall did not exist or he had faith and just went unclaimed for some reason (Which considering his personality would be very unlikley). He would not go to a paradise. He would just be put in the bleak city of the dead with people that share a similar outlook to him.
That suffering is the first circle of Hell in Dante. That's still a punishment for a soul, to be eternally deprived of a paradise that, by all accounts, they should be open to, if there was justice in the afterlife.
 
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Unless there is twitter on the FR, I don't think most people would ever know about Jabroni, the great and just atheist hero stuck in a brick. And if they did know, what are the going to do? Protest instead of growing food to eat? I am pretty sure orcs have a word for bunches of people protesting outside of temples: buffet.

Anyway can Jabroni even be happy in one of the upper planes? They seem pretty full of gods, their servants, and the souls of people who worship those gods. Doesn't sound like Jabroni's favorite crowd, and I bet participation is mandatory in the lawful good planes.

Is there any evidence that being in the brick is painful or unpleasant?
 

Unless there is twitter on the FR, I don't think most people would ever know about Jabroni, the great and just atheist hero stuck in a brick. And if they did know, what are the going to do? Protest instead of growing food to eat? I am pretty sure orcs have a word for bunches of people protesting outside of temples: buffet.

Anyway can Jabroni even be happy in one of the upper planes? They seem pretty full of gods, their servants, and the souls of people who worship those gods. Doesn't sound like Jabroni's favorite crowd, and I bet participation is mandatory in the lawful good planes.

Is there any evidence that being in the brick is painful or unpleasant?

Yes, it is both painful and unpleasant by canon.

OTOH, I'm still failing to see the injustice in this system. It's not like worship the deity(ies) or go to somewhere unpleasant is a terribly rare condition for religions. And, its not like it causes a great deal of resistance from believers. The largest real world religions all have this same condition, and, funnily enough, it's apparently not driving people away in droves. So, yeah, I'm not sure why the Wall would be seen as injustice by believers, and/or would cause people to question their faith.
 

Yes, it is both painful and unpleasant by canon.

I would argue that to most of the people who end up in it, an afterlife of any kind is likely to be painful and/or unpleasant, so for those people, the Wall is not going to be that much worse than the alternatives. Even going to a plane of existence that lines up with their alignment probably wouldn't be that great; if you disbelieve actively present gods to that degree, living for eternity in a place filled with extraplanar beings that are more distant from your world while so attuned to their beliefs that they were willing to become beings that embody them even more than the gods do is likely not going to be a particularly pleasant prospect. At least the Wall offers the promise of eventual oblivion.
 

OTOH, I'm still failing to see the injustice in this system.

You live a life of virtue, you help others, you save innocents, you sacrifice your own happiness for the betterment of the world, you fight evil, you die, and now you need to beseech some random gomer to take a liking to you or spend eternity in some form of torment. That's the deal.

And that's just? Are we using the same definition of that word?

It's not like worship the deity(ies) or go to somewhere unpleasant is a terribly rare condition for religions....The largest real world religions all have this same condition, and, funnily enough, it's apparently not driving people away in droves.

It is rare, actually. It is uncommon. There are only a very few relatively narrow interpretations of certain beliefs that achieve anything other than a broadly just afterlife once you introduce the concept of a potential eternal paradise. That's part of the problem. I've shown this before in the thread, and I'm not interested in re-hashing the arguments, so next time you want to assert this, instead, just take a stroll through the middle dozen pages or so of the thread, I'm sure you'll find it.

So, yeah, I'm not sure why the Wall would be seen as injustice by believers, and/or would cause people to question their faith.
Because any RW analogous situation is seen as a problem and causes people to question their faith We've heard form some of them in this very thread.

Read the thread! We've been over all this before already.
 
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That's not a believable characterization of "most people." Most people absolutely care if there is ultimate justice in existence.
Nope. Most people don't care beyond having a cozy life for their small circle of family and friends. The majority of farmers who worship Chauntea don't bat an eye over how many heroes end in the wall, same with followers of other deities.#

Sure you'll find a handful that do care, but evacuating them wouldn't take more than a dozen spelljammers, the majority wants to worship their deities, doesn't want to leave and don't really care what their deities do to non-believers
Perhaps you can explain to me the world-view wherein a person who does good and fights evil and helps people and altruistically sacrifices themselves to better the world they live in can be justly made to suffer for eternity based on the say-so of certain powerful authority figures? Because I confess I'm having difficulty seeing it.
It's held by billions of RL people, so there must be something about this world-view that attracts people or simply doesn't make them care
(Curiously: if the afterlife works like it did in Dante, Elminster would likely be damned to hell as a pagan, and Ed's first concern should've been sharing the Bible with him!)
Wait, so there are such religions in RL? And billions of people have no problem following religions that create this ultimate injustice in existence? :lol:
Because any RW analogous situation is seen as a problem and causes people to question their faith We've heard form some of them in this very thread.
For some sure. For billions believers in these religions they not only don't care, but even agree that the non-believers should be punished in the afterlife

There are even people who seem to get their kick not so much from what their religion does to them, but from feeling superior due to what their religion does to non-believers.

Thus you could rent your evacuation spelljammers for a two-way trip as you'll likely be able to find just as many dickheads from other worlds wanting to migrate to Toril because of the wall than you'd find people wanting to get away from Toril because of it
 
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A Story is taking shape in my mind: you've got a heroic band of misfits from various worlds and dimensions heading through portals to FR (like the portal through Arvandor, or the Gates of the Moon, or whatnot). Their job? To smuggle people off the plane. They create refugees from the corrupt leadership of Toril. Aided, perhaps, by some of the Good gods of the pantheon who agree that self-sacrifice is better than allowing innocents to suffer,. The Evil Gods put up some hissy fit perhaps, and AO likely does his "CUZ I'M THE BOSS THAT'S WHY YOU CAN'T TAKE MY TOYS" thing, maybe even tries to cut off the planes, but with the power of the Athar, they manage to reduce the gods' influence. The Wall is torn down. The people leave. Spelljammers criss-cross the world, over-burdened with people. The climactic battle is this group of saviors, those who gave the people freedom from a corrupt and brutal regime, trying to keep the last portal open for a few moments longer as the Good gods, bathed in the divine remnants of their evil kindred, send their last few noble defenders through, and utter a quiet "I'm sorry," before AO's fury falls upon them for the last time, and the crystal sphere is cut off, once more a cage, a prison for an omnipotent and petty child.

The second half of the campaign is dealing with the refugee crisis on the planes. ;)

I think the story has a lot of potential. I don't know why some people are trying so hard to discredit your idea.

Maybe they're afraid of ending up on the Fugue? ;)
 


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