D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[Elderbrain]

See, this is why I like the Planescape take on how the afterlife works... per that setting, you go either to the realm of the deity you worshiped when you die (assuming you were faithful), OR to the plane matching your alignment if you didn't worship a deity. (Of course, these often coincide.) A member of the Athar - a Faction that denies the divinity of the Powers - who is (say) Lawful Good goes to Mount Celestia when he dies, and doesn't need "permission" from any divinity to do so, nor is he sent to the Lower Planes or some other awful place as punishment. He goes there because his alignment matches, notwithstanding his faith or lack thereof, and to Baator with what the Faerunian deities think! My advice: Don't die on Toril, migrate to another crystal sphere where the gods aren't such jerks...

 

[Alzrius]

Ao ensures the the "Balance between Good and Evil" is upheld. For all D&D calls this True Neutral, this is a Lawful Evil concept that makes genuine good impossible. If I'm good and feed orphans an equivalent amount of evil is needed to balance this. Good can do precisely nothing overall. If I'm a chaotic evil bastard and start looting and pillaging I'm not going to care that other people somewhere have a nicer life. Evil beings aren't even remotely slowed while good becomes futile.

An uncaring being upholding an immensely unjust system in which good is automatically futile is the definition of Lawful Evil because the system itself is evil.

Okay, I'll bite: under your system, what does True Neutral look like then?

 

[MonsterEnvy]

See, this is why I like the Planescape take on how the afterlife works... per that setting, you go either to the realm of the deity you worshiped when you die (assuming you were faithful), OR to the plane matching your alignment if you didn't worship a deity. (Of course, these often coincide.) A member of the Athar - a Faction that denies the divinity of the Powers - who is (say) Lawful Good goes to Mount Celestia when he dies, and doesn't need "permission" from any divinity to do so, nor is he sent to the Lower Planes or some other awful place as punishment. He goes there because his alignment matches, notwithstanding his faith or lack thereof, and to Baator with what the Faerunian deities think! My advice: Don't die on Toril, migrate to another crystal sphere where the gods aren't such jerks...

Sadly almost no one in Toril can migrate to another one. The majority of people get the afterlife they want anyway. Or are just put with the others of their type if they were unclaimed. Pretty much if you are on the Fugue plane and you beseech a god to take you. Unless you did something completely against their dogma they would probably take that person.

Also as mentioned the idea to reinstate the Wall was decided by majority vote by the gods. Even if all the good gods voted against it they would still be outnumbered by the Neutral and Evil Gods.

Greyhawk's gods are even worse at getting things done. In order for a god in Greyhawk to do something on the material plane. (Like manifesting themselves or an avatar on it.) All of the Greyhawk gods have to agree on it. If just one says no then that is the end of it. Though there are Loopholes.

 

[I'm A Banana]

My take on the Wall of the Faithless is that it demonstrates very clearly one thing that's aluded to but not made explicit in the books. Ao is Lawful Evil.

Ao, for those who aren't aware, is the overgod of the Forgotten Realms. And he's lawful evil just like any other entity who praises the "Balance between good and evil" and tries to enforce it on people. And he wants people caught in his system - the Wall of the Faithless is jail for those who don't play the games of a lawful evil overgod.

And someday, maybe, I'll run or play a campaign that goes all the way up to throwing Ao off his throne.

I'm playing a gnome wild mage in a Dragonlance game at the moment who basically takes the view that the so-called "balance" is more insane and cruel than a world ruled by evil would be. Part of that world's history is that a disaster happened to "right the scales" - my gnome's in-character position is that it is madness itself to pretend that this was good or righteous or anything more than monstrously cruel. In a world where no good can be done without evil coming along and wrecking the joint, the only logical position is that which is actually common among people in the era of the War of the Lance: the gods should be shunned, if not destroyed. He wants to wreck the balance, so that someone can win (good or evil or whatever).

He's fit in pretty well to the story so far - the main narrative involves an evil goddess coming into the world, and he hates that. Plus, as a dragonlance gnomish wild mage, he's played as inept and mad and interested in tweaking things to see what happens.

It'll be fun to see how it plays out. I've got a pretty good DM, so I'm pretty confident with him rolling with the idea, when it comes down to it.

My advice: Don't die on Toril, migrate to another crystal sphere where the gods aren't such jerks...

It seems like the elves avoid it, given the SCAG's narrative of the passage to Arvandor: if they ever die of old age, they do it on another plane.

A Story is taking shape in my mind: you've got a heroic band of misfits from various worlds and dimensions heading through portals to FR (like the portal through Arvandor, or the Gates of the Moon, or whatnot). Their job? To smuggle people off the plane. They create refugees from the corrupt leadership of Toril. Aided, perhaps, by some of the Good gods of the pantheon who agree that self-sacrifice is better than allowing innocents to suffer,. The Evil Gods put up some hissy fit perhaps, and AO likely does his "CUZ I'M THE BOSS THAT'S WHY YOU CAN'T TAKE MY TOYS" thing, maybe even tries to cut off the planes, but with the power of the Athar, they manage to reduce the gods' influence. The Wall is torn down. The people leave. Spelljammers criss-cross the world, over-burdened with people. The climactic battle is this group of saviors, those who gave the people freedom from a corrupt and brutal regime, trying to keep the last portal open for a few moments longer as the Good gods, bathed in the divine remnants of their evil kindred, send their last few noble defenders through, and utter a quiet "I'm sorry," before AO's fury falls upon them for the last time, and the crystal sphere is cut off, once more a cage, a prison for an omnipotent and petty child.

The second half of the campaign is dealing with the refugee crisis on the planes.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

A Story is taking shape in my mind: you've got a heroic band of misfits from various worlds and dimensions heading through portals to FR (like the portal through Arvandor, or the Gates of the Moon, or whatnot). Their job? To smuggle people off the plane. They create refugees from the corrupt leadership of Toril. Aided, perhaps, by some of the Good gods of the pantheon who agree that self-sacrifice is better than allowing innocents to suffer,. The Evil Gods put up some hissy fit perhaps, and AO likely does his "CUZ I'M THE BOSS THAT'S WHY YOU CAN'T TAKE MY TOYS" thing, maybe even tries to cut off the planes, but with the power of the Athar, they manage to reduce the gods' influence. The Wall is torn down. The people leave. Spelljammers criss-cross the world, over-burdened with people. The climactic battle is this group of saviors, those who gave the people freedom from a corrupt and brutal regime, trying to keep the last portal open for a few moments longer as the Good gods, bathed in the divine remnants of their evil kindred, send their last few noble defenders through, and utter a quiet "I'm sorry," before AO's fury falls upon them for the last time, and the crystal sphere is cut off, once more a cage, a prison for an omnipotent and petty child.

The second half of the campaign is dealing with the refugee crisis on the planes.

Two things. AO would not care. He does not care about anything that is done with mortal souls. Maybe some evil gods would object but AO frankly would not care as this situation is frankly far beneath his notice. Second an exodus from Toril is unlikely to happen. The majority of It's denizen's are content with their lot in life and or give little thought to the situations of the gods and the fates of souls. You are seriously misblaming AO. As he has nothing to do with your problem.

Frankly trying to get removing people from Toril is likely to be met with distain from the vast majority of the population. Pretty much endangering people and taking them from their homes to put them in a place they don't know about. The reason being the people who want to move them are faithless who reject the gods,while at the same time refusing to accept their fate and trying to get a migration going because they are afraid of their fate and rather then try and just fix it, they want to run away instead, and convince a bunch of other people they should run away too, rather then continue with their lives.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Two things. AO would not care. He does not care about anything that is done with mortal souls.

Then why did he make it the rule in Toril for souls to have to wait on the Fugue Plane?

That's part of the problem - canonically, some entity decided that this was how the world was going to be (either Ao creating this flow in the first place, or some evil god of the dead diverting the souls' natural course).

Second an exodus from Toril is unlikely to happen. The majority of It's denizen's are content with their lot in life and or give little thought to the situations of the gods and the fates of souls.

Frankly trying to get removing people from Toril is likely to be met with distain from the vast majority of the population. Pretty much endangering people and taking them from their homes to put them in a place they don't know about. The reason being the people who want to move them are faithless who reject the gods,while at the same time refusing to accept their fate and trying to get a migration going because they are afraid of their fate and rather then try and just fix it, they want to run away instead, and convince a bunch of other people they should run away too, rather then continue with their lives.

That's one of the things that is world-breakingly unrealistic about the situation - that most people are perfectly content with some hero of great virtue and goodness being wall'd just because he dared to ask "What's so great about you gods anyway? Why is beseeching you a condition of my just reward?" That in this world of archwizards and Chosen and gods walking the earth, no one has a real problem with this injustice.

So in the Story, of course, it's explained that lots of people DO have a problem with this injustice, they just presume there's no other way - they're ignorant. They don't know that there's an alternative out there.

The low-level adventures are in lifting that veil of ignorance.

A man approaches the party in a smoky bar and says he'd like to hire the party to infiltrate Evermeet, go to Arvandor, and find the soul of a particular elf who, born and raised on Faerun, crossed into the West and died on Arvandor of old age, without ever having paid homage to a god. As part of this quest, he gives them a magical gem that will record their journey. Go there. Ask the elf these questions. Return. It's time to show the world - you can die and have heaven, without the gods.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Then why did he make it the rule in Toril for souls to have to wait on the Fugue Plane?

That's part of the problem - canonically, some entity decided that this was how the world was going to be (either Ao creating this flow in the first place, or some evil god of the dead diverting the souls' natural course).

Toril was just like that, the fugue plane is the souls natural course there. Dendar the Night Serpent a primordial that was created from the first being to ever have a nightmare) is a native of the fugue plane. So the fugue plane has been around since Toril first came into existence with intelligent life, AO also is not the creator of the realms just it's manager.

Lots of material plane worlds are just set up differently from the default nothing to do with powerful beings.

That's one of the things that is world-breakingly unrealistic about the situation - that most people are perfectly content with some hero of great virtue and goodness being wall'd just because he dared to ask "What's so great about you gods anyway? Why is beseeching you a condition of my just reward?" That in this world of archwizards and Chosen and gods walking the earth, no one has a real problem with this injustice.

So in the Story, of course, it's explained that lots of people DO have a problem with this injustice, they just presume there's no other way - they're ignorant. They don't know that there's an alternative out there.

The low-level adventures are in lifting that veil of ignorance.

A man approaches the party in a smoky bar and says he'd like to hire the party to infiltrate Evermeet, go to Arvandor, and find the soul of a particular elf who, born and raised on Faerun, crossed into the West and died on Arvandor of old age, without ever having paid homage to a god. As part of this quest, he gives them a magical gem that will record their journey. Go there. Ask the elf these questions. Return. It's time to show the world - you can die and have heaven, without the gods.

Most people still won't care. And just to tell you won't be welcome in Arvandor unless you worship Elven Deities. Because Arvandor is the domain of the Elven Pantheon, and they have the right to bar anyone from being there if they feel you should not be there. So no you still need the gods for heaven.

Also this "What's so great about you gods anyway? Why is beseeching you a condition of my just reward?" is just arrogance on part of a mortal. The gods are shown to be real, assuming he knows about the Wall, he should just swallow his pride if he is a champion of justice and say "Thanks Tyr for smiling on me." When he died Tyr would then be happy to take him.

You are making this out to be a much bigger injustice then it actually is.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Toril was just like that, the fugue plane is the souls natural course there. Dendar the Night Serpent a primordial that was created from the first being to ever have a nightmare) is a native of the fugue plane. So the fugue plane has been around since Toril first came into existence with intelligent life, AO also is not the creator of the realms just it's manager.

Lots of material plane worlds are just set up differently from the default nothing to do with powerful beings.

Not according to the source material...

In the beginning existed a misty realm of timeless nothingness, crafted by Ao the Hidden One from the raw elemental bedlam of the Phlogiston. Within this dim sphere, several worlds drifted upon the Sea of Night. Though the worlds were lifeless and barren at this time, powerful beings of manifest entropy and elemental might coveted them. The name of their kind has been lost to the ages; the few sages who today know of their existence refer to them simply as the primordials.
...
This Blue Age came to a sudden and chilling end when Toril was inexplicably plunged into darkness, its sun snatched from the sky by a sinister primordial known as the Night Serpent.

Dendar doesn't come along until after Ao already made the cosmology what it was.

"Just like that," in FR, always means some entity made it like that. These aren't impersonal natural forces creating the world, it's active beings with personalities, thoughts, goals, and desires. If souls have to do a little song and dance to get any worthy afterlife, then someone thought that was a good idea at one point.

That's a world with active gods. That's FR, by its own canon.

Most people still won't care.

That's not a believable characterization of "most people." Most people absolutely care if there is ultimate justice in existence.

And just to tell you won't be welcome in Arvandor unless you worship Elven Deities. Because Arvandor is the domain of the Elven Pantheon, and they have the right to bar anyone from being there if they feel you should not be there. So no you still need the gods for heaven.

SCAG has a gnome sneaking in, so it's not as tight a lock as all that. And adventurers are always going where they're not welcome, anyway. That's part of what makes it a Story of Adventure!

Also this "What's so great about you gods anyway? Why is beseeching you a condition of my just reward?" is just arrogance on part of a mortal. The gods are shown to be real, assuming he knows about the Wall, he should just swallow his pride if he is a champion of justice and say "Thanks Tyr for smiling on me." When he died Tyr would then be happy to take him.

Tyr is in part responsible for my suffering in the first place. Why should I give honor and praise to the one at whose hands I am suffering injustice? That just reminds me of abusive relationships - "Say you love me and that I'm awesome, beg me for forgiveness, or else I won't be responsible for what happens!"

You are making this out to be a much bigger injustice then it actually is.

Perhaps you can explain to me the world-view wherein a person who does good and fights evil and helps people and altruistically sacrifices themselves to better the world they live in can be justly made to suffer for eternity based on the say-so of certain powerful authority figures? Because I confess I'm having difficulty seeing it.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Two things. AO would not care. He does not care about anything that is done with mortal souls.

Just addressing this one point. Not caring about others. Lack of empathy. We commonly call those sorts of people "sociopaths." I tend to think that someone who lacks empathy and takes no thought for the feelings or well-being of others is a pretty good definition of evil.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

SCAG has a gnome sneaking in, so it's not a tight a lock as all that. And adventurers are always going where they're not welcome, anyway. That's part of what makes it a Story of Adventure!

Tyr is in part responsible for my suffering in the first place. Why should I give honor and praise to the one at whose hands I am suffering injustice? That just reminds me of abusive relationships - "Say you love me and that I'm awesome, beg me for forgiveness, or else I won't be responsible for what happens!"

Perhaps you can explain to me the world-view wherein a person who does good and fights evil and helps people and altruistically sacrifices themselves to better the world they live in can be justly made to suffer for eternity based on the say-so of certain powerful authority figures? Because I confess I'm having difficulty seeing it.

Of course a Gnome can sneak in there. Arborea is an outer plane you can just plane shift there if you don't use the portal to it's first layer of Arvandor. So yeah the Gnome could go there and I doubt the Elven Gods would have problems with him being there. (Evermeet meanwhile would have a problem as it is an Elves only place. The main branch of the Elven Supremacist Organisation lives there even.) But he would not stay in Arborea when he died. His soul would go to the Fugue Plane like everyone else.

On Tyr he can't do for you if you don't say thanks to him at least once. He can't cause you to suffer or grant you his favor, because he has no hold on that so called hero's soul. Tyr is the God of Justice and Laws, so he can't break the laws of the planes.

As for the justice of the wall. The guy has days to years to say "Hey Tyr take me in." while in the fugue plane waiting judgment. If he does not then he is a fool honestly. The rule is you go in the wall if you reject the gods, you may not like it or consider it just but it is the rule. Many of the Gods including Tyr probably don't consider it just. But it is outside what they can do and for the most part considered a necessary evil.

Even if the Wall did not exist or he had faith and just went unclaimed for some reason (Which considering his personality would be very unlikley). He would not go to a paradise. He would just be put in the bleak city of the dead with people that share a similar outlook to him.