D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[MonsterEnvy]

5) Otherwise, they "might wait centuries before Kelemvor judges where they go," and "decides the fate of each one."

This is a good post but I have a question about this comment. I never read anything about they might having to wait centuries. Could you give me the source on that.

Because stuff I have read. Says that Kelemvor gives each soul up to a tenday before he judges them. During which they can beseech a god to claim them if a god has not come to pick them up yet, or sell their soul to a devil if they are not comfortable with receiving Kelemvor's judgement or have second thoughts about their promised afterlife. (During this time Devils actually do something that is useful for the place by explaining to the souls what their situation is.)

 

[MonsterEnvy]

At that point, it isn't entirely clear how much lee-way Kelemvor has. According to #12, it seems like he's trying to get them to the right place. The two big possibilities that jump out to me are that either a) anyone who makes it to him gets some sort of punishment, or b) he can punish or provide whatever other consequences he sees fit. This would allow for him shucking their souls of the Forgotten Realms dead-net and letting their souls float to an afterlife that accords to their alignment.

The last option (turning them loose from the Forgotten Realms dead-net) seems unlikely, because I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where Kelemvor would feel that he shouldn't do that. It is however possible that he might send them to the domain of whatever deity he feels they fit the best--giving them a third chance. Perhaps the ones he keeps around as servants are apathetic, while those who get turned into larvae are just generically evil (I mean, who really wants to sift through shades of black deciding which deity to send them to? Icky), and those who go into the Wall are those who are just standing there insulting the gods and refusing to accept assignment to the realms of any of them.

Of course, the problem with that, as I brought up before, is that it just seems like that number would be so small that the Wall would blow away if a demon breathed on it.

In any event, while 5e isn't entirely clear on what happens, it does flatly contradict some previous materials, and allows for quite a variety of interpretations within the text we've been given.

Kelemvor when a soul comes to him for judgement. He sends some to the Divine Realms of other deities (The faithful that just managed to slip through the cracks and were not claimed.) The rest he puts them in areas of the city of the dead that contain souls with a similar mindset to them. The False (Those who willingly betrayed their patron deities or went against their dogma with out getting another patron) are punished depending on the severity of their crime. Which features the being guides or being turned into Larva and dropped into Hades. The Faithless are put in the wall.

 

[Xvartslayer]

That's why I described it as a semi-joke/theology test, sir. The "Vending Machine God" is a huge theological issue here the United States.

I live in the American Midwest and have never heard of that god, let alone been wronged by him in any way "huge" or otherwise. A member of my party once unhorsed the Red Knight on a natural 20 during a joist instigated by the avatar in order to cow the character into submission. It was awesome. Whether or not he ended on up on the Wall was ultimately irrelevant since after that his personal quest was to ascend to godhood.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

This is a good post but I have a question about this comment. I never read anything about they might having to wait centuries. Could you give me the source on that.

Yeah, it's in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, in the Asmodeus entry, p.25, in the third whole paragraph down.

They have changed things. There is no mention of the 10-day period anywhere, and the distinction of False get specific punishments and only the Faithless go in the Wall has been entirely removed. The Wall is for the "truly false and faithless."

 

[The_Silversword]

Something else Id like to bring up, the Wall of the Faithless is a Faerunian pantheon thing, so if you think it forces you to pick a patron deity or whatever, pick a different pantheon, be from Kara-Tur, or Maztica, or Chult or where ever.

 

[The_Silversword]

Worshipping all the deities doesn't mean you can't have a patron deity.

A farmer who prays to Waukeen before selling his harvest and to Talos and Auril to spare his crops and Lathander to bless the new planting can still have Chauntea as his patron deity.

Excellent point! Off-topic, but are you the same Cyricist who used to hang out on the WotC Forgotten Realms forums?

 

[Neonchameleon]

My take on the Wall of the Faithless is that it demonstrates very clearly one thing that's aluded to but not made explicit in the books. Ao is Lawful Evil.

Ao, for those who aren't aware, is the overgod of the Forgotten Realms. And he's lawful evil just like any other entity who praises the "Balance between good and evil" and tries to enforce it on people. And he wants people caught in his system - the Wall of the Faithless is jail for those who don't play the games of a lawful evil overgod.

And someday, maybe, I'll run or play a campaign that goes all the way up to throwing Ao off his throne.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

My take on the Wall of the Faithless is that it demonstrates very clearly one thing that's aluded to but not made explicit in the books. Ao is Lawful Evil.

Ao, for those who aren't aware, is the overgod of the Forgotten Realms. And he's lawful evil just like any other entity who praises the "Balance between good and evil" and tries to enforce it on people. And he wants people caught in his system - the Wall of the Faithless is jail for those who don't play the games of a lawful evil overgod.

And someday, maybe, I'll run or play a campaign that goes all the way up to throwing Ao off his throne.

AO is not evil. But he does not care if evil happens in the realms. Nor does he care if good happens. All he cares about is that Faerun is run properly. He is the definition of True Neutral. AO the Uncaring. AO does not care about the Wall, nor does he care about what is done with souls. The Wall was put in place by Myrkul because Myrkul was an evil bastard. It was taken down by Kelemvor when he became god of the dead but reinstated after Kelmvor had a charge of heart about how he should act as god of the dead and the other gods by majority vote felt the Wall should be there to punish those with out faith.

 

[Neonchameleon]

AO is not evil. But he does not care if evil happens in the realms. Nor does he care if good happens. All he cares about is that Faerun is run properly. He is the definition of True Neutral.

Ao ensures the the "Balance between Good and Evil" is upheld. For all D&D calls this True Neutral, this is a Lawful Evil concept that makes genuine good impossible. If I'm good and feed orphans an equivalent amount of evil is needed to balance this. Good can do precisely nothing overall. If I'm a chaotic evil bastard and start looting and pillaging I'm not going to care that other people somewhere have a nicer life. Evil beings aren't even remotely slowed while good becomes futile.

An uncaring being upholding an immensely unjust system in which good is automatically futile is the definition of Lawful Evil because the system itself is evil.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Ao ensures the the "Balance between Good and Evil" is upheld. For all D&D calls this True Neutral, this is a Lawful Evil concept that makes genuine good impossible. If I'm good and feed orphans an equivalent amount of evil is needed to balance this. Good can do precisely nothing overall. If I'm a chaotic evil bastard and start looting and pillaging I'm not going to care that other people somewhere have a nicer life. Evil beings aren't even remotely slowed while good becomes futile.

An uncaring being upholding an immensely unjust system in which good is automatically futile is the definition of Lawful Evil because the system itself is evil.

Why does an equivalent amount of evil needed to balance good? AO does not care about the mortals balance between good and evil. The mortals can do as they please. He only cares about a balance between the gods and ensuring that they actually do their jobs right. Anything below this step is unimportant to him.