D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[rollingForInit]

If I DM'd a Forgotten Realms campaign, I'd treat the whole "lipservice" thing as just that: someone who's goes to church, says the words, but acts contrary to it.

I wouldn't require players to specifically worship in-game, as long as they don't reject deities. But if someone lives according to the rules of a deity, does work the deity appreciates, and respects the fact that deities exist, then that character is set for a decent afterlife, even though the person wouldn't get the favour of a truly devout follower.

 

[Hussar]

In standard D&D if that guy was worshipper of Erythnul or Nerul it would also be picked by them and not go to the abyss regardless if alignmemt
actually if both are gondians they don't face Kelemvor. The faithful are already collected on the open fugue plane and don't have to go to the city of the dead

You missed the point later in my post that neither were actually Gondians.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

it is important that a D&D world incorporating gods ensure that the gods are potent and important. The way you do that is by punishing those that fail to acknowledge them in some manner.

Or they could, you know, try the carrot the instead of the stick. The dwarf who worships Moradin gets to spend his eternity at those beautiful, supernal forges in his domain, making all those wonderful works of craftsmanship he could only dream of as a mortal. And even if he's imperfect (ie, NG or LN instead of LG), Moradin will probably let him in if he's "close enough." (If not, Moradin will probably toss him or just not claim him in the first place.) The dwarf who doesn't worship any god, instead gets to spend his eternity doing ?something? in ?some destination? that hopefully is as nice as Moradin's. But "close enough" won't count to get you into a LG afterlife, and you most definitely won't get those wonderful forges.

It's also worth noting that, no matter how evil you are, you really aren't going to enjoy an afterlife on the Lower Planes. Not if we are assuming any sort of actual human psychology.

By the way, I enjoyed your post, even if there are some things I don't see the same way.

I also remember a bit of lore that says at one point the wall was abolished only to be reinstated by the demand of all the gods when people began to stop worshiping them. It would seem to me that a better solution would be, I don't know, to actually be worth worshiping?

Precisely.

 

[Hussar]

But there is a carrot. You don't have to worship Moradin to go to his afterlife. You just have to be a good dwarf and accept that the gods are real in that setting. You don't actually have to worship anyone.

 

[psychophipps]

But there is a carrot. You don't have to worship Moradin to go to his afterlife. You just have to be a good dwarf and accept that the gods are real in that setting. You don't actually have to worship anyone.

And that's why I'm wondering what the all the honking is about. You have to try really,really hard to get chucked into the Wall when it comes right down to it. It's not like the old Protestant preacher semi-joke/theology test of driving down the highway when the 18-wheeler truck coming at you swerves into your lane suddenly and you straight go to Hell without passing "Go" or collecting $200 because you yelled a panicked, "OH S%#T!" at the last second and doomed yourself for eternity. Becoming "all you are is just another brick in the wall..." is a process of some length where you have multiple chances from multiple query sources and at each one you need to flat-out deny the obvious fact that the Gods exist and they work in the FR setting in things big and small that the character has personally witnessed their entire lives.

The one thing that hasn't popped up yet in this moral outrage-fest, and I'm wondering why not because it gets bandied around in the for and against in any religion discussion IRL is the question of, "Where do the unfortunate infants, young children, and/or mentally handicapped end up when they die?" They don't understand enough of the world to answer any of the Fugue plane queries in a meaningful way and it would be all but impossible to judge them upon their actions as they don't even understand what good and evil are, let alone law and chaos.

Puts a whole new spin in things if 90%+ of the Wall of the Faithless is dead babies and children...

 

[Sword of Spirit]

But there is a carrot. You don't have to worship Moradin to go to his afterlife. You just have to be a good dwarf and accept that the gods are real in that setting. You don't actually have to worship anyone.

Where is that stated? The SCAG does leave things rather nebulous, and you could choose to take it more loosely like that if you chose, but there are a number of other ways to interpret it that are at least as reasonable.

That said, personally I do take a looser approach, because it makes Kelemvor and the FR deities less of jerks, but I'd do that regardless of what the books said.

 

[Hussar]

And that's why I'm wondering what the all the honking is about. You have to try really,really hard to get chucked into the Wall when it comes right down to it. It's not like the old Protestant preacher semi-joke/theology test of driving down the highway when the 18-wheeler truck coming at you swerves into your lane suddenly and you straight go to Hell without passing "Go" or collecting $200 because you yelled a panicked, "OH S%#T!" at the last second and doomed yourself for eternity. Becoming "all you are is just another brick in the wall..." is a process of some length where you have multiple chances from multiple query sources and at each one you need to flat-out deny the obvious fact that the Gods exist and they work in the FR setting in things big and small that the character has personally witnessed their entire lives.

The one thing that hasn't popped up yet in this moral outrage-fest, and I'm wondering why not because it gets bandied around in the for and against in any religion discussion IRL is the question of, "Where do the unfortunate infants, young children, and/or mentally handicapped end up when they die?" They don't understand enough of the world to answer any of the Fugue plane queries in a meaningful way and it would be all but impossible to judge them upon their actions as they don't even understand what good and evil are, let alone law and chaos.

Puts a whole new spin in things if 90%+ of the Wall of the Faithless is dead babies and children...

I did mention that early on, but, it got lost in the scrum. Yeah, that's where this really does fall apart. Although, if you take the interpretation that the Faithless have to actively reject a patron diety, rather than simply not choosing one, then it wouldn't happen. Ilmater would likely scoop up most of these as they would most likely fall under his purview.

And that does bring up a point. There are a LOT of gods in FR. it's pretty hard to have your actions not fall under the aegis of some diety or other. There's a deity for every class (and typically several), a deity for every profession, and then several abstract deities, like Ilmater who champions those that are suffering. Heck, you have a patron deity for murderers. That's about as niche as you can possibly get.

Where is that stated? The SCAG does leave things rather nebulous, and you could choose to take it more loosely like that if you chose, but there are a number of other ways to interpret it that are at least as reasonable.

That said, personally I do take a looser approach, because it makes Kelemvor and the FR deities less of jerks, but I'd do that regardless of what the books said.

Yeah, and I see that. I just perused the FR Wiki about this, and yes, you could interpret it as anyone who does not choose a patron deity get the wall. It was my understanding though that after you died and went to the Fugue plane, those without patron deities kinda wandered around, cooling their heels for a ten-day until judged by Kelemvor and picked up by a deity based on their life's actions. Is that mistaken?

If you do interpret things as you must have a patron god, then, yeah, i'd be pretty annoyed about the Wall myself. It should be okay for FR peoples to simply acknowledge the pantheon without having to pick a specific patron.

 

[The_Silversword]

I figured this could use its own thread.

One of the things that has always got under my skin about FR was that if you didn't pick a patron deity for your character, your afterlife was to get stuck in a wall, regardless of your actions in life.

I just feel the need to point out that you were not required to choice a patron deity, most residents of the Realms dont have a single patron deity and worship several gods, depending on the situation, so there is no need to choose a single patron. The wall of the Faithless is for those who dont believe in the gods or those who just gave lip service and didnt stay true to such and such god's teachings. So long as you didnt piss too many gods off you would be judged by your actions throughout your life, not based on who your patron deity is or isnt. Granted, have a patron deity and staying true to the deity gave you a bit of a short cut as agents of your god may come by and pick you up avoiding the whole being judged by Kelemvor thing, but having a patron deity is by no means required to stay out of the wall.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Yeah, and I see that. I just perused the FR Wiki about this, and yes, you could interpret it as anyone who does not choose a patron deity get the wall. It was my understanding though that after you died and went to the Fugue plane, those without patron deities kinda wandered around, cooling their heels for a ten-day until judged by Kelemvor and picked up by a deity based on their life's actions. Is that mistaken?

If you do interpret things as you must have a patron god, then, yeah, i'd be pretty annoyed about the Wall myself. It should be okay for FR peoples to simply acknowledge the pantheon without having to pick a specific patron.

I just feel the need to point out that you were not required to choice a patron deity, most residents of the Realms dont have a single patron deity and worship several gods, depending on the situation, so there is no need to choose a single patron. The wall of the Faithless is for those who dont believe in the gods or those who just gave lip service and didnt stay true to such and such god's teachings. So long as you didnt piss too many gods off you would be judged by your actions throughout your life, not based on who your patron deity is or isnt. Granted, have a patron deity and staying true to the deity gave you a bit of a short cut as agents of your god may come by and pick you up avoiding the whole being judged by Kelemvor thing, but having a patron deity is by no means required to stay out of the wall.

FWIW:

"Characters of Toril nearly always have a patron deity. Everyone in Faerun knows that those who die without having a patron deity to send a servant to collect them from the Fugue Plane at their death spend eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless or disappear into the hells of the devils or the infernos of the demons." - FRCS 3e, p. 232

I'm no expert, so I'm not sure if other sources contradict that (it would be nice if they did, since it's pretty harsh).

Of course, with the more lenient view, the Wall of Faithless just wouldn't have enough souls in it to avoid blowing away in the wind, unless someone drops a meteor swarm on an Athar convention having an outing on Toril.

 

[Celtavian]

But there is a carrot. You don't have to worship Moradin to go to his afterlife. You just have to be a good dwarf and accept that the gods are real in that setting. You don't actually have to worship anyone.

You mean we've been debating this very point and you missed it? The entire reason for this debate is because you have to choose Moradin as your patron or you might end up in the wall no matter how good a dwarf you've been.

Fortunately, every dwarf knows this that is a part of dwarf society. All the people of the FR know that you have to choose a patron or you end up in the wall. The idea being the patron collects you from the Fugue Plane and gives you a set of rules you were to follow so that Kelemvor can judge you according to your deity's rules. It is the FR version of punishing The Faithless for having no faith and not following the rules the gods have set forth. It's one of the reasons I prefer the Realms. They give you a reason why the gods exist and why it is important that you worship them. This idea of gods existing and people get to ignore them as long as they're good never sat well with me. Contrary to what some in this thread have posted, even in polytheism not giving the gods their proper worship was considered wrong and sinful behavior that usually had you cast into a bad place. The concept of faithlessness aka atheism did not really exist. That's what seems to have some people confused. As I see it the Wall is more the concept of not following the rules as the gods have set them forth and refusing to accept the sovereignty of the gods rule over the souls of the FR. Those that fail to acknowledge their rule and refuse to take a patron deity to protect them in the afterlife get to waste away on the wall for their lack of faith.

I don't have a problem with it. Makes the FR seem more realistic in regards to its religious traditions. Gods have never been easy on the lesser living creatures of a world. You do things the way they want them done or you suffer consequences regardless of how "good" or "right" you think you are. It's one of the reasons why in real life I stay as far away from religion as I possibly can. But in a fantasy game, if the gods are real, make them real. That includes the parts of religion most dislike such as the tyranny of "do it the way I tell you or else."