Gods are usually overbearing jerks that have the power to decide right and wrong based on their viewpoint. I live with it in the FR because I have to.
In real life, I rely on the scientific process.
D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless
- Thread starter I'm A Banana
- Start date
Gods are usually overbearing jerks that have the power to decide right and wrong based on their viewpoint. I live with it in the FR because I have to.
In real life, I rely on the scientific process.
The_Silversword
Explorer
Characters often times choose a patron deity, but the general populace pretty much worshiped all the gods, thats covered in many sources, most recently the Sword Coast Adventurers' Guide, so as long as youre not so much of a douche that no god will claim you, you can avoid the wall without having a patron deity.
Phantarch
First Post
This is personal opinion and not heavily researched, but I feel like part of the problem is the shift in the cultural perception of what "heaven" and an afterlife is supposed to be. It seems to me that the afterlife historically was all about reward and threat of punishment. Respect the gods (or God), and you get rewarded. Disrespect them, and you get punished. Pretty simple. However, 20th to 21st sentiments have shifted this view to just being a place where we get to see our loved ones who we have lost. It's not reward and punishment, it's consolation for mourning the dead. "Well, he's in a better place."
Xvartslayer
First Post
I would say its closer to the opposite. At the risk of generalizing, the idea of a personal relationship with the divine, a personal moral framework and a personal reckoning at the end (that is relevant enough to warrant meaningful contemplation) is a relatively modern concept. In general a person's religious life was lived publicly (like virtually every other aspect of life). It reinforced primarily civic, rather than personal, virtues and the consequences for failing one's religious obligations were communal.
Xvartslayer
First Post
Your description is a bit of an unfair characterization of Protestant Christianity. Some - though not I - might find it "offensive" or even "highly offensive" (to use Dire Bear's term for snark about atheism and political correctness.)
Worshipping all the deities doesn't mean you can't have a patron deity.
A farmer who prays to Waukeen before selling his harvest and to Talos and Auril to spare his crops and Lathander to bless the new planting can still have Chauntea as his patron deity.
psychophipps
Explorer
That's why I described it as a semi-joke/theology test, sir. The "Vending Machine God" is a huge theological issue here the United States.
psychophipps
Explorer
My apologies for missing it and failing you give you the credit your post deserved, sir.
MonsterEnvy
Legend
Here is a pretty good story of how the afterlife with the Fugue Plane works a bit. From the Book the Trail of Cyric the Mad.
In it Mask approaches Kelemvor about a soul he had judged. (Mask does not actually care about the soul it's just part of a plot.) The Soul Avner was 10 year old who had been a thief almost his entire life and was devout follower of Mask. However during the last year of his life Avner turned over a new leaf and started working for a duke or something (Can't remember what it was.) He stopped being a thief and died saving the daughter of his Master. Kelemvor noting that Avner had died in the line of duty sent him to Torm. After Torm came forth with Avner's soul (Torm having been tricked by Mask into thinking Kelemvor called him.) Mask disputed that Torm should get Avner's soul, stating that because Avner did not steal a thing and went against Mask's dogma for an entire year that Avner was one of his False. Kelemvor points out that does not make him false as people can change and go down different paths. Mask points out that yes Avner did change, but did he convert. Mask asked Torm if Avner had ever once prayed to him or any god other Mask. Torm proceeds to check and sadly confirm that Avner had never prayed to any god but Mask and that Torm has no right to his soul. Before leaving Torm tells Avner that he is sorry and that had Avner said his name in praise at least one time in life, he would have been happy to let him stay in his realm.
A thing to point out is that Avner would have stayed with Torm had Mask not decided to dispute it. (Which he only did because of a plan) Despite Avner never worshiping Torm. Kelemvor just made a call due to the way Avner spent the last year of his life and the way he died.
In it Mask approaches Kelemvor about a soul he had judged. (Mask does not actually care about the soul it's just part of a plot.) The Soul Avner was 10 year old who had been a thief almost his entire life and was devout follower of Mask. However during the last year of his life Avner turned over a new leaf and started working for a duke or something (Can't remember what it was.) He stopped being a thief and died saving the daughter of his Master. Kelemvor noting that Avner had died in the line of duty sent him to Torm. After Torm came forth with Avner's soul (Torm having been tricked by Mask into thinking Kelemvor called him.) Mask disputed that Torm should get Avner's soul, stating that because Avner did not steal a thing and went against Mask's dogma for an entire year that Avner was one of his False. Kelemvor points out that does not make him false as people can change and go down different paths. Mask points out that yes Avner did change, but did he convert. Mask asked Torm if Avner had ever once prayed to him or any god other Mask. Torm proceeds to check and sadly confirm that Avner had never prayed to any god but Mask and that Torm has no right to his soul. Before leaving Torm tells Avner that he is sorry and that had Avner said his name in praise at least one time in life, he would have been happy to let him stay in his realm.
A thing to point out is that Avner would have stayed with Torm had Mask not decided to dispute it. (Which he only did because of a plan) Despite Avner never worshiping Torm. Kelemvor just made a call due to the way Avner spent the last year of his life and the way he died.
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Sword of Spirit
Legend
Yeah, it sounds like they really haven't come up with a consistent pattern for how it all works--which is to be expected with a variety of authors and a shared world.
That said, if you want the most current interpretation, the SCAG is what we have. Here is what I can extract from it on the most current official stance:
The Place and Process
3) Souls wait on the Fugue Plane, in the City of Judgement, "often unaware they are dead."
4) The servant of a deity might come to claim a soul.
5) Otherwise, they "might wait centuries before Kelemvor judges where they go," and "decides the fate of each one."
Judgment and Consequences
6) The requirements for attaining "the afterlife they seek" is to "revere the gods according to the rites of their religion."
7) The gods judge who is worthy. If one is, "they are taken to their awaited afterlife in the deity's domain."
8) The criteria the deity uses is "Those who lived their lives most in keeping with a deity's outlook".
9) Those not in that category, who have to wait for Kelemvor to get around to judging them, include those who "have transgressed in the eyes of their favored god, or have not followed any particular ethos".
10) Kelemvor's potential judgments include the soul "serving as guides for other lost souls," and being "transformed into squirming larvae and cast into the dust".
11) Only "The truly false and faithless are mortared into the Wall of the Faithless".
Wrenches in the Plan
12) Kelemvor is viewed as "there to take each soul by the hand and lead it to the proper afterlife." This seems to imply that Kelemvor has wide lee-way. It is also unclear whether the listed punishments are intended to be comprehensive
13) The text is vague on whether or not a specific patron deity gets to do all the judging, or whether it is a bit looser.
14) "Martyrs who die that others may live are always blessed by Ilmater with a final rest and reward in the god's afterlife, should they so choose."
#14 is the real wrench in the plan. It throws a whole new light on everything and seems to demand non-traditional interpretations. Specifically, it tells us that recruiting in the Fugue Plane is allowed! The wording implies that Ilmater can and does recruit from anyone, so not only can those who were "faithless" in life get a second chance, but apparently divine poaching is allowed.
This sets a precedent for a lot of flexibility. It seems to tell us that regardless of whether or not you had a patron deity, and regardless of whether or not you lived up to their expectations other deities are allowed to recruit you while in the Fugue Plane. And since it might be centuries before Kelemvor gets around to judging you, you have a long window of opportunity.
Take that in for a moment.
To benefit from this you do have to take up some god on their offer, and they won't give you the offer unless they feel you are worthy (and by the same token, declaring a patron in life won't do you any good if you don't measure up to their standards). And there is no guarantee any god will try to recruit you at all. But Ilmater sets a precedent that if you did live according to some deity's values they might very well offer you a chance, regardless of whether you followed them (or even believed in them) in life. And in fact, given that they derive their power from having worshipers, they have every incentive to do so. This makes a heck of a lot of sense. It has been well established in lore that a soul is a hot commodity. The fiends are wheeling and dealing and raiding and fighting over them. The deities derive power from their worship. If they are allowed to go and make offers to souls that weren't all that devout in life, but they feel are close enough to their own heart, why wouldn't they? It's a straight up win for the deity. If someone didn't follow a deity in life, the biggest reason they wouldn't have any recruiting attempts made--given that most of them will at least unconsciously live according to some god's ethos with the variety of them out there--would simply be that the the deity didn't even know they were there. Perhaps the deity's servants need to be actively recruiting. Or maybe they just know when someone who lived highly in-tune with their ethos dies. Ilmater must have one or the other of those going on to be able to recruit any martyr.
Regardless, either because they reject recruiting attempts, or because no deity attempts to recruit them, some are going to end up judged by Kelemvor.
At that point, it isn't entirely clear how much lee-way Kelemvor has. According to #12, it seems like he's trying to get them to the right place. The two big possibilities that jump out to me are that either a) anyone who makes it to him gets some sort of punishment, or b) he can punish or provide whatever other consequences he sees fit. This would allow for him shucking their souls of the Forgotten Realms dead-net and letting their souls float to an afterlife that accords to their alignment.
The last option (turning them loose from the Forgotten Realms dead-net) seems unlikely, because I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where Kelemvor would feel that he shouldn't do that. It is however possible that he might send them to the domain of whatever deity he feels they fit the best--giving them a third chance. Perhaps the ones he keeps around as servants are apathetic, while those who get turned into larvae are just generically evil (I mean, who really wants to sift through shades of black deciding which deity to send them to? Icky), and those who go into the Wall are those who are just standing there insulting the gods and refusing to accept assignment to the realms of any of them.
Of course, the problem with that, as I brought up before, is that it just seems like that number would be so small that the Wall would blow away if a demon breathed on it.
In any event, while 5e isn't entirely clear on what happens, it does flatly contradict some previous materials, and allows for quite a variety of interpretations within the text we've been given.
(Quotes taken from: p. 20 under "The Afterlife", p. 25 under "Asmodeus", p. 31-32 under "Kelemvor", and p. 30 under "Ilmater")
That said, if you want the most current interpretation, the SCAG is what we have. Here is what I can extract from it on the most current official stance:
The Place and Process
3) Souls wait on the Fugue Plane, in the City of Judgement, "often unaware they are dead."
4) The servant of a deity might come to claim a soul.
5) Otherwise, they "might wait centuries before Kelemvor judges where they go," and "decides the fate of each one."
Judgment and Consequences
6) The requirements for attaining "the afterlife they seek" is to "revere the gods according to the rites of their religion."
7) The gods judge who is worthy. If one is, "they are taken to their awaited afterlife in the deity's domain."
8) The criteria the deity uses is "Those who lived their lives most in keeping with a deity's outlook".
9) Those not in that category, who have to wait for Kelemvor to get around to judging them, include those who "have transgressed in the eyes of their favored god, or have not followed any particular ethos".
10) Kelemvor's potential judgments include the soul "serving as guides for other lost souls," and being "transformed into squirming larvae and cast into the dust".
11) Only "The truly false and faithless are mortared into the Wall of the Faithless".
Wrenches in the Plan
12) Kelemvor is viewed as "there to take each soul by the hand and lead it to the proper afterlife." This seems to imply that Kelemvor has wide lee-way. It is also unclear whether the listed punishments are intended to be comprehensive
13) The text is vague on whether or not a specific patron deity gets to do all the judging, or whether it is a bit looser.
14) "Martyrs who die that others may live are always blessed by Ilmater with a final rest and reward in the god's afterlife, should they so choose."
#14 is the real wrench in the plan. It throws a whole new light on everything and seems to demand non-traditional interpretations. Specifically, it tells us that recruiting in the Fugue Plane is allowed! The wording implies that Ilmater can and does recruit from anyone, so not only can those who were "faithless" in life get a second chance, but apparently divine poaching is allowed.
This sets a precedent for a lot of flexibility. It seems to tell us that regardless of whether or not you had a patron deity, and regardless of whether or not you lived up to their expectations other deities are allowed to recruit you while in the Fugue Plane. And since it might be centuries before Kelemvor gets around to judging you, you have a long window of opportunity.
Take that in for a moment.
To benefit from this you do have to take up some god on their offer, and they won't give you the offer unless they feel you are worthy (and by the same token, declaring a patron in life won't do you any good if you don't measure up to their standards). And there is no guarantee any god will try to recruit you at all. But Ilmater sets a precedent that if you did live according to some deity's values they might very well offer you a chance, regardless of whether you followed them (or even believed in them) in life. And in fact, given that they derive their power from having worshipers, they have every incentive to do so. This makes a heck of a lot of sense. It has been well established in lore that a soul is a hot commodity. The fiends are wheeling and dealing and raiding and fighting over them. The deities derive power from their worship. If they are allowed to go and make offers to souls that weren't all that devout in life, but they feel are close enough to their own heart, why wouldn't they? It's a straight up win for the deity. If someone didn't follow a deity in life, the biggest reason they wouldn't have any recruiting attempts made--given that most of them will at least unconsciously live according to some god's ethos with the variety of them out there--would simply be that the the deity didn't even know they were there. Perhaps the deity's servants need to be actively recruiting. Or maybe they just know when someone who lived highly in-tune with their ethos dies. Ilmater must have one or the other of those going on to be able to recruit any martyr.
Regardless, either because they reject recruiting attempts, or because no deity attempts to recruit them, some are going to end up judged by Kelemvor.
At that point, it isn't entirely clear how much lee-way Kelemvor has. According to #12, it seems like he's trying to get them to the right place. The two big possibilities that jump out to me are that either a) anyone who makes it to him gets some sort of punishment, or b) he can punish or provide whatever other consequences he sees fit. This would allow for him shucking their souls of the Forgotten Realms dead-net and letting their souls float to an afterlife that accords to their alignment.
The last option (turning them loose from the Forgotten Realms dead-net) seems unlikely, because I'm having a hard time coming up with a scenario where Kelemvor would feel that he shouldn't do that. It is however possible that he might send them to the domain of whatever deity he feels they fit the best--giving them a third chance. Perhaps the ones he keeps around as servants are apathetic, while those who get turned into larvae are just generically evil (I mean, who really wants to sift through shades of black deciding which deity to send them to? Icky), and those who go into the Wall are those who are just standing there insulting the gods and refusing to accept assignment to the realms of any of them.
Of course, the problem with that, as I brought up before, is that it just seems like that number would be so small that the Wall would blow away if a demon breathed on it.
In any event, while 5e isn't entirely clear on what happens, it does flatly contradict some previous materials, and allows for quite a variety of interpretations within the text we've been given.
(Quotes taken from: p. 20 under "The Afterlife", p. 25 under "Asmodeus", p. 31-32 under "Kelemvor", and p. 30 under "Ilmater")
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