D&D 5E [Forgotten Realms] The Wall of the Faithless

[MG.0]

It's a bit hypocritical, but people are very often hypocritical.

It's not even hypocritical. Wizards have power too. Everytime a wizard casts fireball at your enemies, should you worship him? I'm sure the wizard might think so.

 

[MG.0]

I would have a major problem with a player who, on one hand, wants to play a Faithless character, denying the gods are worthy of worship, but on the other hand sidles up to the cleric every time he has a boo boo.

That's your choice. I wouldn't punish players that way. You seem to have trouble separating what players want from what you want their characters to do.

 

[MG.0]

If you want to deny the gods, fair enough. But that choice carries consequences. I'd pretty much write off that player as not really being interested in actually playing the character he claims to want to play.

Considering how you've already made it clear that you'd not allow such a character to have a fair shot at surviving, I wouldn't be surprised if the player wrote you off as a DM.

 

[Mephista]

I would have a major problem with a player who, on one hand, wants to play a Faithless character, denying the gods are worthy of worship, but on the other hand sidles up to the cleric every time he has a boo boo.

It's basically trying to eat your cake and have it too. "Hey the gods are a buncha bastards and nogoodniks. Now, make with the raise dead so I can keep playing this character." It's ludicrous.

If you want to deny the gods, fair enough. But that choice carries consequences. I'd pretty much write off that player as not really being interested in actually playing the character he claims to want to play.

I ran into that once at a con game. I was playing a cleric, and one of the players was being a bad mouth jerk just insulting my character and her god, and then going out to pick fights. The character refused to heal that person. It was rather interesting to see the player's reaction. They took it as a rather personal affront, and flipped out at the table, to the point that even his friends were backing away. This is pretty standard reaction, imho.

On the other hand, I've also seen some people play atheist style characters, refuse divine healing, as part of their role play. Which is more commendable, but also much more rare (primarily because Planescape faction).

 

[Mirtek]

As for being outmatched, numbers aren't everything. Who's to say the relative strength of gods from different worlds?

Actualy that's what I was saying they're outmatched in relative strength while their numbers are pretty close

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Maybe they heard how the FR deities are funnelling souls and depriving the more general planes of the normal flow (again, it could be a long game move by the Far Realm secretly directed by AO). Maybe one of a billion different reasons. Use your imagination.

As for being outmatched, numbers aren't everything. Who's to say the relative strength of gods from different worlds?

So you just want the Greyhawk deities to destroy Toril for no reason. Despite the fact they have their own problems and they are not connected to Toril in anyway other then the few gods they share.

AO has nothing to do with the far realm. The FR deities are not part of a huge plot to steal souls. And I still don't know why you want to turn him into a bad guy.

You are just overly bitter about something about FR.

 

[Hussar]

That's your choice. I wouldn't punish players that way. You seem to have trouble separating what players want from what you want their characters to do.

Hang on, how am I punishing the player? Note, although I wasn't clear, I was more thinking from the point of view of a fellow player, rather than the DM. If your character is a declared Faithless character, why would my priest heal him or have anything to do with him? (The character that is, not the other player, obviously) You have declared your character is an enemy of faith, that you would do anything in your power to destroy the creations of the gods and you don't believe the gods are worthy of worship. IOW, you have declared your character a heretic.

What would possibly motivate my theist character to help you in the slightest way? Why would my character not actually go out of his way to punish you? Why would ANY theist character see you as anything other than a horrid person in need of punishment? From a theist character's perspective, you're an eater of puppies. You're just about as evil as you could possibly be. You not only reject the other character's entire belief system, but, you also claim to want to destroy that belief system as well.

Considering how you've already made it clear that you'd not allow such a character to have a fair shot at surviving, I wouldn't be surprised if the player wrote you off as a DM.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6779101#ixzz3uFRbYQap

Why would the character get a "fair shot"? The character has decided and declared himself to be an enemy of faith. He's trying to destroy people's ways of life and actively working to destroy their belief system. What possible "fair shot" would you give this guy? If he succeeded, he could bring untold chaos on the world - the last time the Wall went away, it did exactly that. Nothing this person is going to do is going to help. This is a character with a bomb strapped to his chest trying to force the rest of the world to bow to his beliefs. Beliefs that are provably WRONG. The gods are not just "powerful wizards" in Forgotten Realms. They aren't. There is no bait and switch here. There is absolutely nothing the indicate that the gods are anything but gods.

So, again, why would any theist character aid this character. This character is destined for the worst punishment that the religion can inflict. Being Faithless is the greatest sin in this belief system. Nothing is worse. Even a mass murderer who eats puppies isn't denied an afterlife. Everyone gets an afterlife, of one flavour or another, except those who refuse to accept that the gods are actually gods. Don't have to actively worship them, particularly, just accept that, yup, that glowy person is a god.

Tell me again why this character would get a "fair shot".

 

[MG.0]

Hang on, how am I punishing the player? Note, although I wasn't clear, I was more thinking from the point of view of a fellow player, rather than the DM. If your character is a declared Faithless character, why would my priest heal him or have anything to do with him? ...SNIP...BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

Because the character is being controlled by a player trying to have a good time in a game with fellow players...regardless of any differences in how those characters are being portrayed. Your personal opinion of how in-game religion ought to work should not trump the player's desire or lack thereof to embrace any religion for his character. You literally sound like a religious fanatic at this point. I feel sorry for your players. This conversation is a waste of time.

 

[Mecheon]

Hang on, how am I punishing the player? Note, although I wasn't clear, I was more thinking from the point of view of a fellow player, rather than the DM. If your character is a declared Faithless character, why would my priest heal him or have anything to do with him? (The character that is, not the other player, obviously) You have declared your character is an enemy of faith, that you would do anything in your power to destroy the creations of the gods and you don't believe the gods are worthy of worship. IOW, you have declared your character a heretic.

What would possibly motivate my theist character to help you in the slightest way? Why would my character not actually go out of his way to punish you? Why would ANY theist character see you as anything other than a horrid person in need of punishment? From a theist character's perspective, you're an eater of puppies. You're just about as evil as you could possibly be. You not only reject the other character's entire belief system, but, you also claim to want to destroy that belief system as well.

Because your character might be merciful, rather than just judging people on their faith? I mean, imagine the other side, that they're someone who worships a god your god doesn't like. Quite frankly, a cleric would probably find more fault with that.

And well, that makes such a 'compelling' case for following the gods. "Follow my gods or I will punish you, even if you're a nice person who helps out, saves orphanages from burning down, and helps kittens"

Yeah, no, see, that makes a compelling case for pulling a Dark Sun and killing all of the gods.

Why would the character get a "fair shot"? The character has decided and declared himself to be an enemy of faith. He's trying to destroy people's ways of life and actively working to destroy their belief system. What possible "fair shot" would you give this guy? If he succeeded, he could bring untold chaos on the world - the last time the Wall went away, it did exactly that. Nothing this person is going to do is going to help. This is a character with a bomb strapped to his chest trying to force the rest of the world to bow to his beliefs. Beliefs that are provably WRONG. The gods are not just "powerful wizards" in Forgotten Realms. They aren't. There is no bait and switch here. There is absolutely nothing the indicate that the gods are anything but gods.

So, again, why would any theist character aid this character. This character is destined for the worst punishment that the religion can inflict. Being Faithless is the greatest sin in this belief system. Nothing is worse. Even a mass murderer who eats puppies isn't denied an afterlife. Everyone gets an afterlife, of one flavour or another, except those who refuse to accept that the gods are actually gods. Don't have to actively worship them, particularly, just accept that, yup, that glowy person is a god.

Tell me again why this character would get a "fair shot".

That's the problem, though. With the exception of Ao, they are basically just powerful wizards. Gods have been killed before, some of them multiple times

Imagine your character finds out about this. About the hilarious history of these gods repeatably dying, or coming back, and all that. That could quite easily end with their faith shattered: The gods aren't some divine mandate, some of them are just mortals who got lucky, were in the right place at the right time, and got in power that way. And gods are oh so very, very killable if you know the right way

 

[Hussar]

What difference does it make that gods are kill able? Real world religions are filled with gods that are killed. Some come back and some don't. Yet, somehow being killed makes them not a god? Osiris isn't a god? Baldur isn't a god because he is killed? I'm sure there are other examples.

Why would this make a difference?

In a pantheonic faith, worshippers of gods that you may not agree with are still members of your faith. That's a far cry from heretics that completely deny your faith.

Funny thing about DND. In settings with no gods, everyone of consequence is evil. The basic message of DND is that those who lack faith are evil. Dark Sun, Ravenloft, even Dragonlance. The Kingpriest of Istar got a large can of Old Testament whoopass dropped on him because he was using his position to begin a pogrom to kill anyone who used non-divine magic. Elves, dwarves, wizards, everyone. The gods walked away because the followers of the gods had so abused their powers and only retuned when Takhisis broke the agreement to leave Krynn alone.

So again, why would a cleric repeatedly aid someone who claims to want to destroy the very things that the cleric believes in? And, no matter what, refuses to change that stance.