[Forked from the Escapist Magazine Interview Thread] What implications does E...

[Hussar]

1) I'm not defending a guy. I'm defending anyone's ability to play D&D however they have fun with D&D. Which includes nixing elements they don't like for whatever arbitrary reason they don't like 'em.

And if that's what [MENTION=6776483]DDNFan[/MENTION] had done, I'd be right there with you. But, he found this element so disruptive that it caused him to stop playing 4e entirely. I was wondering what had caused such a strong reaction and have still not seen anything that really explains that.

2) Specifically, I'm defending anyone's ability to say that they don't like eladrin teleportation.

3) The counterpoint I'm criticizing is the idea that no one should actually have a problem with eladrin teleportation -- the asumption that if they do, they are Doing D&D Wrong. That is, to borrow a fun little phrase, bunkum.

And, if anyone in this thread was actually saying that, again, I'd agree with you. Fortunately, you're the only one who is apparently making this claim. The strongest thing I've said is that I don't really see a big deal here. Hardly the most damning of criticisms.

4) I'm not really interested in backing off of the idea that someone who mandates that another player be cool with some arbitrary game element is being inflexible. Yeah, if you're saying that playing 4e D&D requires you to accept eladrin teleportation, you are being much more inflexible than someone who says it doesn't. The first solution to people quitting over minor game elements like this is to not imagine that they are sacrosanct and inviolate things that must be accepted as they were handed down from on high -- to be able to tell them, "Well, okay, just do something else, not a big deal."

Can you actually provide a quote where anyone has stated this in this thread KM? Has anyone said that playing 4e D&D requires you to accept eladrin teleportation? I just reread the entire thread, and I've not seen that said a single time. And, in fact, we have been saying, "Well, okay, just do something else, not a big deal" all the way along.

Since there's no Fun Police or Natural-Reading-O-Meter that objectively quantifies and enforces these things, we have no choice but to rely on people applying their best understanding. D&D's never really been a game about One True Way To Play.



All right then, apparently we can drop the idea that someone is applying the rules wrong or that the complaint is illegitimate.

So, if I am completely misusing the rules, very obviously misunderstanding how the mechanics work, and then turn around and blame the system for the problems this causes in my game, I'm 100% legitimate in my complaints? Really? That's a very strange position to take KM. Wouldn't it be more helpful to elucidate the actual mechanics and then clear up misunderstandings instead of supporting a poor understanding of something? Isn't it better to criticise something from a position backed up by facts rather than misunderstandings?

Different folks got different problems. There might be ways to solve it or not have it, but whatever. Nobody needs to do any of that solving. They can just kick eladrin out of their games if that breaks it for them and keep on keepin' on.

Is it fragile if this breaks their game? Sure. But D&D is optional, it has to compete with other stuff for our attention, and our attention is very fragile. If DDNFan's handle is any indication, it sounds like 5e, with its stripped-down basic core, is going to be right up his ally, and he knows it. Plus, it sounds like those who really like eladrin teleportation will probably be able to still do it, if they want. And viola!, we have a robust game that can accommodate multiple playstyles and no one has to tell anyone else that they're an Edition Warrior if they don't like Rule X.

Again, you're the only one who's bringing Edition Warrior into this. I stripped out the edition warring stuff from the initial quote because I was afraid it would cause issues. I honestly wanted to see what these issues actually were. And I never did actually get an answer to that question. What were these massive inconsistencies? I got a couple of vague hand waves with no actual substance. Repeated requests for specifics were ignored.

I really wanted to see what these world shattering implications were. You gave a few, KM. DannyA brought up a number. And there was some others tossed into the mix. I don't have the adventure that [MENTION=6776483]DDNFan[/MENTION] is talking about. So, I wanted to see what the issues were. Unfortunately, apparently, this turned out to be a difficult question and no actual answer was ever forthcoming.

 

[I'm A Banana]

In that case, how did you work out that 4e's rules are too fragile?

Oh, I don't think they are. You'll have to talk to the folks who think that keyholes break the game for that.

What exactly is the issue here?

I still think you're barking up the wrong tree. In a lot of ways, it doesn't even matter what the issue is. He doesn't have to like eladrin teleporting. No one does. No one has to like elves or dragons or wizards or paladins. No one has to like castles or the fantasy genre or polyhedral dice. Anyone can not like something completely untrue about any game -- I dunno, maybe someone doesn't like the required child-beating that is required in AD&D. No one is obligated to like a thing. No one is even obligated to not like a thing for good reasons. You're never going to convince them that their experience is wrong (even if it CLEARLY is, and this isn't as clear).

Take it as a starting position. Dude doesn't like eladrin teleporting. It's a given. You're probably not going to be able to convince him that it's really not as bad as he thinks it is. So where do we go from there?

So, if I am completely misusing the rules, very obviously misunderstanding how the mechanics work, and then turn around and blame the system for the problems this causes in my game, I'm 100% legitimate in my complaints? Really? That's a very strange position to take KM. Wouldn't it be more helpful to elucidate the actual mechanics and then clear up misunderstandings instead of supporting a poor understanding of something? Isn't it better to criticise something from a position backed up by facts rather than misunderstandings?

It's not so strange to take up the position that peoples' minds don't work in logical, predictable ways, so peoples' preferences are not a result of logic and knowledge. Turn on the news and you'll see plenty of evidence of that at work. So if peoples' minds aren't rational, and it's not mandated that you like any given rule element of D&D in any e, then it follows that plenty of people are just going to dismiss parts of D&D for irrational reasons, and it also follows that this is a good thing, because it creates the varieties of self-expression that this hobby is dang good at.

 

[Hussar]

It's too late. You're already engaged in edition warring. Notice the tribalism in this thread. Notice how the lines are drawn. Notice how you've taken a complaint about a significant power not being taken into account in an adventure's setting has been blown into a tribal war. This thread is extremely edition warry... but not in the way that you think and not in the way that you're claiming. It's full of the exact behavior that blew the place up into edition wars in the first place. KM's right. There's tons of badwrongfun lurking just below the surface here.

And the mods should shut the thread down. It's long past its usefulness.

How? How is this edition warry? What tribalism?

Look, I asked for specifics from a module about what was so shattering about a power not being taken into account. In 20 pages, NO ONE has actually answered that question. Most people did manage to take the thread in the light it was meant - what implications does this power have? And, to that end a number of misapprehensions about the mechanics had to be cleared up - how far can it go? How often can it be used? What does a short rest mean? Etc. So, it has served that function.

The problem is, my initial query never actually got answered. I totally accept that eladrin teleport would have setting building implications and I've commented multiple times in this thread on exactly that. Eladrin cities likely should be built a bit further apart to prevent people from entering each other's homes. Curtains would be very commonly used. As, likely, would stained glass and eight foot walls.

Honestly, I could see Eladrin cities resembling those in earlier Korea, where you had fairly high walls around most homes to gain privacy. Funny story. In previous century Korean homes, girls were not allowed outside the compound unescorted. So, they would have teeter totters to play with in their yards. But, instead of the sitting style ones that we have, you stand on these and jump up and down, launching the other person into the air, so they can look over the wall. It was a very common game for girls in those days.

I could see something like that for Eladrin as well. Particularly if you go with the idea that eladrin children cannot teleport and are restricted from moving outside the home.

But, all this aside, am I really being that unreasonable for saying that nothing in this thread seems to be all that setting shattering? [MENTION=44640]bill[/MENTION]91, have you seen anything in this thread that would cause you to have very strong reactions to eladrin teleport? Anything that would really have major implications in your game worlds?

 

[DDNFan]

In the OP, I quoted DDNFan. This was his first reply in this thread.



Now, look at the issues he's talking about - keyholes, gates, walls 40 feet high, no arrow slits at any height. I mean, anything that's more than 25 feet stops teleport. How was the town actually designed for a non-teleporting race? Does he mean that there SHOULD be these things? Is that the issue here? I though the issue was that there was these sorts of things, and eladrin teleport made them pointless. That was the sense I certainly got later.

Perhaps a bit clearer post on the issues from @DDNFan might clear this up a bit. What exactly is the issue here?

Dude, it was three years ago, I don't remember all the eyeball rolling specifics, but there were plenty. We lost all immersion. This is the last thing I'm going to write on this topic, except to say that if a group of smart players thinks an adventure sucks in the believability department, you cannot blame them for having poor imagination to rationalize those problems away. That's dismissive and frankly, condescending. That's not what we pay adventure designers for. We don't want to second guess everything, or ask ourselves why they designed this city or town that seems inappropriate for the race that's supposed to inhabit it, to the extent that it makes us wonder not only why we keep playing that adventure, but the entire game. It was a string of bad adventures with terrible plot holes from the start. Even the most ardent 4th ed fans admit their adventures sucked. This is just the continuation of the suckyness.

Calling people stupid or unimaginative instead of placing the blame where it lies, in the adventure designers, is just another example of "you're playing the game wrong / understanding it wrong so it's your fault if you didn't have any fun". That is a very common refrain around these parts, and you hear it in rules discussions too. It's not a serious argument. The fault lies with the designers, not the customers. They made a substandard product that resulted in us not only quitting that adventure, but pushed us over the top to never again touch 4th edition ever again. We can't and don't blame just that one paragon setting for doing that, the rules and the shoddy adventures leading up to it definitely helped, but it was the last straw and no, I meant that there were keyholes and blink entry spots everywhere, not the opposite. I lock my door when I go to the corner store, and this city was the equivalent of everyone leaving all their prized possessions out in the open.

Our rogue had a field day. It was not a challenge, so much so that it was like shooting fish in a barrell. It was full of fail. I'm not going to say it again, it's my opinion and it's just as valid as yours. Don't tell me my imagination is lacking, it's more that I just have limited patience for rationalizing away other people's mediocre work that we paid good money for and invested a lot of time in, for a very low return on our investment. When we find adventures impossible to believe or lack immersion or credibility, that impacts our fun in a negative way. We pay Wizards to make adventures for us that are fun to us. Spending our time rationalizing their lazy work that we gave good money for, and made us repeatedly frustrated after we gave it so many chances, is not our idea of fun. Maybe it's yours, I don't know. But I've heard it repeated many times that the only valid reason to hate the 4th edition adventures or even rules is because of our limited intellect or imaginations, and that is pure BS.

 

[Hussar]

Oh, I don't think they are. You'll have to talk to the folks who think that keyholes break the game for that.



I still think you're barking up the wrong tree. In a lot of ways, it doesn't even matter what the issue is. He doesn't have to like eladrin teleporting. No one does. No one has to like elves or dragons or wizards or paladins. No one has to like castles or the fantasy genre or polyhedral dice. Anyone can not like something completely untrue about any game -- I dunno, maybe someone doesn't like the required child-beating that is required in AD&D. No one is obligated to like a thing. No one is even obligated to not like a thing for good reasons. You're never going to convince them that their experience is wrong (even if it CLEARLY is, and this isn't as clear).

Take it as a starting position. Dude doesn't like eladrin teleporting. It's a given. You're probably not going to be able to convince him that it's really not as bad as he thinks it is. So where do we go from there?

Argh. Totally not what I'm trying to do. I 100% accept that he doesn't like eladrin teleport. No problem. Message received. The question I'm trying to get answered is WHY. What, specifically were the issues that led to this reaction. Did I miss something? Is there something I should be considering in my own campaigns? Is there something like eladrin eye gouging which I think I should add to my games because it sounds like a really cool idea?

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just want to see how the other side of the fence thinks because I don't see massive implications here.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It's too late. You're already engaged in edition warring. Notice the tribalism in this thread. Notice how the lines are drawn. Notice how you've taken a complaint about a significant power not being taken into account in an adventure's setting has been blown into a tribal war. This thread is extremely edition warry... but not in the way that you think and not in the way that you're claiming. It's full of the exact behavior that blew the place up into edition wars in the first place. KM's right. There's tons of badwrongfun lurking just below the surface here.

And the mods should shut the thread down. It's long past its usefulness.

Well, I definitely resent the implication that the fault lies with US. You are going to have your opinion, etc, but I never got into 4e to have an edition war with anyone. In fact I'd never even cracked open a copy of the previous edition of the game, nor ever experienced any significant issue with any player WRT what version of D&D we played in all my long history of playing. I came into the whole thing with no more attitude than "wow, a new version of D&D, I think I'll buy the book and see if I want to play this!" Of course it was maybe about 3 days before I was mugged in some forum by haters. So, take it however you want, but you need to go find someone else to point fingers at.

EDIT: and again, I'm really very much over/not interested in any unpleasantnesses of the past. Its all done, we have 5e and all the people that disliked 4e have what they want, a new edition to either love or criticize. DDNFan can feel happy that the game he considers 'shoddy' is no longer in print! Notice, though, I don't go around making any statements about my opinion of DDN. Again, I find that I cannot accept 'blame' for any edition war, past or present!

 

[tomBitonti]

Need to cool down the talk. This is an interesting topic, with plenty of room for different ideas. Vitriol and hyperbole needs to be set aside.

One of the interesting details is how closely how the ability works in combat is applied as a general case for world building.

For example, because there is no estimation and no chance of failure when Jaunt is performed on a game grid, that can be taken as a statement that in the general world, there is no need for estimation and there is no chance of a failure.

Or, the in combat mechanic can be taken as an approximation made to simplify combat, and the application in general is looser. That opens a lot of issues (as I pointed out earlier).

Also, the basic assumptions of the world matter: Is the world mostly realistic, with extraordinary abilities and magic added on the edges, or are extraordinary abilities and magic common?

For example, in a more realistic world, abilities which seem very small can have a huge impact. Replace Jaunt with "Absolute Time Sense" or "Absolute Directional Sense", and suddenly ocean travel becomes a lot easier (historical reference: Sextant), and the world becomes smaller and safer. Or, if only one group had the ability, they dominate ocean travel, either as masters of the sea, or as a navigators guild and controlling it indirectly.

Also, for a consideration of what Jaunt does, consider how much a difference it makes to have a masterwork steel drill (say, 1/2 inches wide by 2 feet long), and a small pebble with a light on it attached to a string. That defeats many material walls, making defensive fortifications a lot more expensive. A key point is that the man-power advantage of a fortification is overcome if the walls can be breached, and that becomes a lot easier with Jaunt.

Also, stepladders (hardly rare items) would make a 30' wall only a little better than a 25' wall. I'd add 15' feet to the height to make for a more secure wall. 25' to 40' is a pretty big height difference.

Thx!

TomB

 

[I'm A Banana]

Honestly, I could see Eladrin cities resembling those in earlier Korea, where you had fairly high walls around most homes to gain privacy. Funny story. In previous century Korean homes, girls were not allowed outside the compound unescorted. So, they would have teeter totters to play with in their yards. But, instead of the sitting style ones that we have, you stand on these and jump up and down, launching the other person into the air, so they can look over the wall. It was a very common game for girls in those days.

Imagine what it's like to be an eladrin teenager there, peeking up over the wall and teleporting (and maybe risking a bit of a fall) to see your forbidden love, kept from you by walls. But no walls can keep out LOVE!

But, all this aside, am I really being that unreasonable for saying that nothing in this thread seems to be all that setting shattering?

Nah, that's fine. What gets stickier is the idea that unless someone agrees with you that they're somehow in bad faith, or that they have to justify their experience to you in order for you to consider it valid. That's got a way of souring the convo. But I think we're movin' past that!

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just want to see how the other side of the fence thinks because I don't see massive implications here.

I think some of the big ones bandied about give off the general impression that eladrin wreck a lot of traditional methods of security unless their ability is taken into special account. They get wherever they can see. Just imagine your daily life, if you could just will yourself 25 ft to any location you could see, what you could do?

This doesn't NEED to be a big deal, but, depending on how you'd rule things, it might be.

One big thought I had was eladrin suicide missions. The 5 minute limit means that it's hard to get back out again, but if all you need to do is get in -- and you have no intention of surviving anyway -- you could do a lot of damage before you're taken down. Most security measures rely on choke points, but eladrin can defy those.

Also, stepladders (hardly rare items) would make a 30' wall only a little better than a 25' wall. I'd add 15' feet to the height to make for a more secure wall. 25' to 40' is a pretty big height difference.

Y'know, 4e eladrin have sometimes been fluffed as having a thing for spears. I wonder if Eladrin Pole Vaulters would be a thing -- a highly mobile force of dudes who vault up high enough to blink over the walls!

 

[Hussar]

But I've heard it repeated many times that the only valid reason to hate the 4th edition adventures or even rules is because of our limited intellect or imaginations, and that is pure BS.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...What-implications-does-E/page20#ixzz34uYWuox1

Did you hear that in this thread? Did you hear that from me? I'm pretty sure I never said any of those things, so, I'm not sure why I'm getting tarred with this brush.

Again, I've never seen the adventure, so, I have no idea. Bad adventures get written, so, fair enough. It's a shame you cannot remember any specifics, because that might help me not to make the same mistakes.

But, make no mistake here. At no point did I call your stupid or unimaginative. The worst I might have said was that you misunderstood or misapplied the mechanics. Since you cannot recall any specifics, that's an unsubstantiated claim, so, I can't really argue it at all.

 

[I'm A Banana]

This thread is extremely edition warry... but not in the way that you think and not in the way that you're claiming. It's full of the exact behavior that blew the place up into edition wars in the first place. KM's right. There's tons of badwrongfun lurking just below the surface here.

And the mods should shut the thread down. It's long past its usefulness.

Not helping. If the thread's not useful for you, I'd recommend viewing one of the other awesome threads here! They are all beautiful and special in their own way!