[Forked from the Escapist Magazine Interview Thread] What implications does E...

[Neonchameleon]

[Cut to remove heat]
I mean, someone could say "I hate 4e because I don't like THAC0," and they'd be very silly for saying that, and they're wrong, on so many levels, but that's their right.

It is also the right of everyone else to say "4E doesn't have THAC0." And point out that they are wrong. Simply and factually.

Anyone who maintains, after it has been corrected, that 4E has THAC0 is at best doing nothing but making themselves look like an idiot. More likely they are the equivalent of a dog on a football pitch, trying to run away with the ball and getting in everyone's way. At worst they are amplifying the persistent drum-beat of mendacity and tribalism that the footsoldiers of the edition wars march to.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Dude, it was three years ago, I don't remember all the eyeball rolling specifics, but there were plenty. We lost all immersion. This is the last thing I'm going to write on this topic, except to say that if a group of smart players thinks an adventure sucks in the believability department, you cannot blame them for having poor imagination to rationalize those problems away.

What happened was that you got carried away by your own enthusiasm and messed up with the rules. The rules do not do what you claim them to. That is not a mistake of the adventure designers - the problem is that you messed up with the rules. Everyone does it from time to time.

The problem is that a few years later, after being corrected on what the rules are, you continue to blame the adventure designers for what was actually your mistake.

It was a string of bad adventures with terrible plot holes from the start. Even the most ardent 4th ed fans admit their adventures sucked. This is just the continuation of the suckyness.

No. Because you actually broke the rules of the game. And consider that a flaw in the adventures. I consider Keep on the Shadowfell to be worse than The Forest Oracle (at least the one makes entertaining reading).

I meant that there were keyholes and blink entry spots everywhere, not the opposite. I lock my door when I go to the corner store, and this city was the equivalent of everyone leaving all their prized possessions out in the open.

First, did they specify keyholes reached all the way through? Because as I mentioned my keys don't.

Second, I have friends who never lock their front doors. (One of them's a millionaire with terrible taste). This is not an unknown mode of living. So worldbuilding should be able to cope with that.

Third, you were talking about the mental gymnastics needed to get round the issues. That to me implies that the simple solutions suggested (like vault doors actually being vault door like) were things you failed to come up with.

Imagine what it's like to be an eladrin teenager there, peeking up over the wall and teleporting (and maybe risking a bit of a fall) to see your forbidden love, kept from you by walls. But no walls can keep out LOVE!

I think some of the big ones bandied about give off the general impression that eladrin wreck a lot of traditional methods of security unless their ability is taken into special account. They get wherever they can see. Just imagine your daily life, if you could just will yourself 25 ft to any location you could see, what you could do?

This doesn't NEED to be a big deal, but, depending on how you'd rule things, it might be.

One big thought I had was eladrin suicide missions. The 5 minute limit means that it's hard to get back out again, but if all you need to do is get in -- and you have no intention of surviving anyway -- you could do a lot of damage before you're taken down. Most security measures rely on choke points, but eladrin can defy those.



Y'know, 4e eladrin have sometimes been fluffed as having a thing for spears. I wonder if Eladrin Pole Vaulters would be a thing -- a highly mobile force of dudes who vault up high enough to blink over the walls!

This is almost all cool. (The "Just will" part rather than "Move equivalent action, and requring rest afterwards" is an issue - but that's a minor part). I like the Eladrin pole vaulters particularly. And worldbuilding with at will teleports would be another fun exercise.

Nah, that's fine. What gets stickier is the idea that unless someone agrees with you that they're somehow in bad faith, or that they have to justify their experience to you in order for you to consider it valid. That's got a way of souring the convo. But I think we're movin' past that!

As this appears to be something you have come up with that's independent of the thread, we do appear to be moving past that. The issue isn't about agreement - it's that claims that are contrary to the rules have equal validity to those that work by the rules. They don't.

 

[pemerton]

I think an important world-building issue is the level of theft. This is not a constant across all human societies and urban conglomerations.

Even within the one country (Australia) I have lived in a small village (around 150 people plus surrounding farms and hamlets) in which no one ever locked their front door, and also in an inner suburb within a large (3+ million) city and with my front door opening onto the street, where I have the door locked even when I am at home so that strangers won't just wander in.

My understanding is that in Japan the rate of theft and housebreaking is very low by Australian and American standards, and that (for instance) a bicycle left unlocked is generally not at risk of being stolen.

Maybe eladrin are culturally not very inclined to theft.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think an important world-building issue is the level of theft. This is not a constant across all human societies and urban conglomerations.

Even within the one country (Australia) I have lived in a small village (around 150 people plus surrounding farms and hamlets) in which no one ever locked their front door, and also in an inner suburb within a large (3+ million) city and with my front door opening onto the street, where I have the door locked even when I am at home so that strangers won't just wander in.

My understanding is that in Japan the rate of theft and housebreaking is very low by Australian and American standards, and that (for instance) a bicycle left unlocked is generally not at risk of being stolen.

Maybe eladrin are culturally not very inclined to theft.

I've heard the same thing vis-a-vis Japan, theft is culturally frowned upon to a degree that makes it almost unknown. Heck, I grew up in a large suburb of Dayton, Ohio and we never needed to lock anything either. In the 15 years we lived there our door was never locked. I doubt we even had a key for it. I never even HEARD of a burglary. If someone stole your bike it was some kid down the street and you went and got it back.

Now, most pre-modern civilizations had a rather higher incidence of violence and at least some types of crimes than we have today. There weren't police, etc, so it was pretty common for valuables to be guarded and/or locked away or hidden, etc. and people generally were more subject to crime than today in most societies. So its reasonable and common to model D&D worlds as crime-ridden (it also makes for lots of plot hooks). Still, an eladrin society lacking petty property crime would be perfectly justified and has precedent, so why not? It would be cool anyway. There might be tales of the bad old days when crime was rampant and terrible things happened. Finally out of sheer survival need everyone adopted a strong ethic against this kind of thing. Anyone who IS caught doing it gets harshly punished, partly because there's really aren't jails and stuff to put them in.

 

[Manbearcat]

I think an important world-building issue is the level of theft. This is not a constant across all human societies and urban conglomerations.

Even within the one country (Australia) I have lived in a small village (around 150 people plus surrounding farms and hamlets) in which no one ever locked their front door, and also in an inner suburb within a large (3+ million) city and with my front door opening onto the street, where I have the door locked even when I am at home so that strangers won't just wander in.

My understanding is that in Japan the rate of theft and housebreaking is very low by Australian and American standards, and that (for instance) a bicycle left unlocked is generally not at risk of being stolen.

Maybe eladrin are culturally not very inclined to theft.

This is a key point and I made it above; that its more absurd with respect to world-building extrapolation to imagine pervasive petty theft in Eladrin communities than it is to imagine infrastructure that isn't mostly predicated upon a 5 minute recharge, short range teleport. I also made the point above that I thought Eladrin culture and the communities that would spring forth from them as a result of those values and ethics would likely resemble those of Star Wars' Vulcans. Whether or not one stridently agrees with that depiction (based off of the racial/cultural portfolio I outlined/cited above), I can't imagine that one would tend to think the standard deviation from that mean assumption would be anything nearing severe. I suspect that petty theft in Star Wars' Vulcan communities is pretty remote.

Folks don't need locked doors, trapped chests, vaults, or rampant anti-teleporting contingencies when they aren't worried their stuff getting lifted.

 

[pemerton]

I suspect that petty theft in Star Wars' Vulcan communities is pretty remote.

True. (Also in Star Trek ones!)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

This is a key point and I made it above; that its more absurd with respect to world-building extrapolation to imagine pervasive petty theft in Eladrin communities than it is to imagine infrastructure that isn't mostly predicated upon a 5 minute recharge, short range teleport. I also made the point above that I thought Eladrin culture and the communities that would spring forth from them as a result of those values and ethics would likely resemble those of Star Wars' Vulcans. Whether or not one stridently agrees with that depiction (based off of the racial/cultural portfolio I outlined/cited above), I can't imagine that one would tend to think the standard deviation from that mean assumption would be anything nearing severe. I suspect that petty theft in Star Wars' Vulcan communities is pretty remote.

Folks don't need locked doors, trapped chests, vaults, or rampant anti-teleporting contingencies when they aren't worried their stuff getting lifted.

Yeah, I think its a cool conception. A society that just doesn't have theft. Maybe eladrin are simply too concerned about their honor to ever steal, or they just aren't that materialistic. Maybe their culture is built entirely around other values and if you need something all you have to do is ask. Maybe they don't even think in terms of property. None of this BTW is outside the realm of known human societies.

In my campaign world the Eldar don't really have money. They might give someone a 'token' that indicates appreciation or a sort of indebtedness, but they don't bargain for piles of cash. If you need something and servicing your needs enhances their standing, they will do it. They might accept some consideration in return, but they mostly gain respect. If a great warrior wields the sword made by an Eldar craftsman, then surely said craftsman will find his larder well-stocked and his creations in demand. Theft in that sort of society is POSSIBLE of course, but locks and wards are placed more to protect people from what is locked up than to guard hordes of wealth.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I wonder if the analogy to Japan can have other ramifications.

The sociological idea behind a society of low theft is that the pressure to be a good member of the system is felt more pointedly than it is in more individualistic societies. Compare, say, how the US reveres Bonnie & Clyde with that idea of a near-theftless society. So there are no famous eladrin outlaws, no famous eladrin rogues, no eladrin Robin Hoods.

What there might be is eladrin yakuza -- organized crime. They rule their districts and, of course, few are willing to challenge the status quo. And you don't need to break into places as a gangster, you rule by dint of reputation and allegiance, your crimes are market-based, your murders are in broad daylight. The eladrin don't have a Bonnie & Clyde, but they do have a Godfather, a Pablo Escobar, a Scarface. They traffic in the dark lusts and base desires of their people readily, but they have no need to hide it.

What might also emerge are eladrin coroprations (taking this in a bit of a dungeonpunk direction there), all gleaming spires and perfect pale white stone. Eladrin as the Apple of the fantasy world clean and modern and like magic (but, of course, kind of a luxury good and very much tightly controlled). And eladrin salarymen with the corresponding work stress and stigma of unemployment.

And, of course, there's the culture of honor, where death and suicide are seen as things responsible people occasionally do, where there is a high toleration of self-harm for the greater good. Maybe there is an eladrin equivalent to Aokigahara, a forest of death where one goes when one doesn't fit in to eladrin society, when one wants to rebel, or simply when one finds society an ill fit, where the eccentric and the jobless go to die, where people deposit the old women they can no longer care for...

The idea would be that SHAME is more important than GUILT -- that others' judgement in society is more important than self-judgement or divine judgement.

And then there's the (very Fey-like) emphasis on proper etiquette and behavior, on doing the proper rituals and on never offending the delicate princess sensisbilities...it's like Miss Manners rules the society and those who are deemed "rude" just wander off into the forest to die of their own free will, ashamed of themselves.

 

[Manbearcat]

True. (Also in Star Trek ones!)

Ack! Please don't revoke my nerd cred!

Theft in that sort of society is POSSIBLE of course, but locks and wards are placed more to protect people from what is locked up than to guard hordes of wealth.

Yup. That is a great quip that fits the bill nicely.

And that is a good post [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] . There is no shame without honor and the inverse is also true. Societies predicated upon the actualization of code and the imposition of a "scarlet letter" upon one's own self, based on a set of widely agreed upon precepts, look very different than societies predicated upon material actualization, narcissism and a positive feedback loop. I think its quite difficult for individuals in the latter societies to get their heads around the former (while the former can easily unpack the nature of the latter as the latter is premised upon the most basic human instinct - self-preservation/perpetuation).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I wonder if the analogy to Japan can have other ramifications.

The sociological idea behind a society of low theft is that the pressure to be a good member of the system is felt more pointedly than it is in more individualistic societies. Compare, say, how the US reveres Bonnie & Clyde with that idea of a near-theftless society. So there are no famous eladrin outlaws, no famous eladrin rogues, no eladrin Robin Hoods.

What there might be is eladrin yakuza -- organized crime. They rule their districts and, of course, few are willing to challenge the status quo. And you don't need to break into places as a gangster, you rule by dint of reputation and allegiance, your crimes are market-based, your murders are in broad daylight. The eladrin don't have a Bonnie & Clyde, but they do have a Godfather, a Pablo Escobar, a Scarface. They traffic in the dark lusts and base desires of their people readily, but they have no need to hide it.

What might also emerge are eladrin coroprations (taking this in a bit of a dungeonpunk direction there), all gleaming spires and perfect pale white stone. Eladrin as the Apple of the fantasy world clean and modern and like magic (but, of course, kind of a luxury good and very much tightly controlled). And eladrin salarymen with the corresponding work stress and stigma of unemployment.

And, of course, there's the culture of honor, where death and suicide are seen as things responsible people occasionally do, where there is a high toleration of self-harm for the greater good. Maybe there is an eladrin equivalent to Aokigahara, a forest of death where one goes when one doesn't fit in to eladrin society, when one wants to rebel, or simply when one finds society an ill fit, where the eccentric and the jobless go to die, where people deposit the old women they can no longer care for...

The idea would be that SHAME is more important than GUILT -- that others' judgement in society is more important than self-judgement or divine judgement.

And then there's the (very Fey-like) emphasis on proper etiquette and behavior, on doing the proper rituals and on never offending the delicate princess sensisbilities...it's like Miss Manners rules the society and those who are deemed "rude" just wander off into the forest to die of their own free will, ashamed of themselves.

Sure, so one may be known by one's reputation for being exceedingly knowledgeable and exacting in one's performance of the proper rituals and dictates of a very elaborate system of etiquette, tradition, and belief. However such a high accomplishment also requires the exacting of the highest degree of conformance and the greatest penalties for failure. Perhaps the eladrin 'nobility' are simply those individuals who have succeeded in achieving the highest levels of this exacting lifestyle. One small slip may propel them to leap from the Cliffs of Despair, their carefully acquired esteem in tatters, though a good suicide can do much to redeem a tarnished reputation!

I would point out that Japanese society DID have outlaws. It had masterless men and bandits who were outside the normal rules, but even they played a sort of role.

The arbiters of tradition could be almost a sort of inquisition. A collective of the scholarly sages who hold forth on the appropriateness and taste of any action. Woe betide the eladrin who offends them!