[Forked from the Escapist Magazine Interview Thread] What implications does E...

[Hussar]

Otoh, people need to understand that simply putting forth an experience proves nothing. If your 4e game lacked lethality, it just might be your fault and not the system.

I mean [MENTION=44640]bill[/MENTION]91, you've argued up and down with me about the rate of level advancement in 1e. How is that different? My experience, backed up by a thorough accounting of the available experience in the Giants modules and others said that level advancement in 1e and 3e were very similar up to about 10th level.

And that's my point. I could actually back up my experience with real examples. This thread has yet to provide any serious game world implications. So, yeah, lacking any actual examples, it's not unreasonable to start looking for other possible explanations.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Now, Mach 2.2 Elves? That's a game changer.

Got a query as to where the Mach 2.2 came from. It was from an old thread that always stuck in my mind:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?248031-The-Three-Thousand-Elf-Mach-2-Army

Now THAT'S a setting changing effect.

 

[billd91]

Otoh, people need to understand that simply putting forth an experience proves nothing. If your 4e game lacked lethality, it just might be your fault and not the system.

I mean [MENTION=44640]bill[/MENTION]91, you've argued up and down with me about the rate of level advancement in 1e. How is that different? My experience, backed up by a thorough accounting of the available experience in the Giants modules and others said that level advancement in 1e and 3e were very similar up to about 10th level.

And that's my point. I could actually back up my experience with real examples. This thread has yet to provide any serious game world implications. So, yeah, lacking any actual examples, it's not unreasonable to start looking for other possible explanations.

I can't poke holes in your experience. They're yours as mine are mine. But I can raise objections to the series of leveling comparisons that were posted here on ENWorld (by Quasqueton) for weaknesses in their assumptions that affect their conclusions. And they did miss a very large aspect of the leveling rules - training time and cost - that have a significant impact on the rate of leveling in the game when played by the rules. Groups are, of course, free to ignore those rules but whether they do or do not will affect how quickly characters leveled in 1e.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But again KM, when someone makes the claim stating that an element is very jarring to the setting but is incapable of actually providing any examples of how it is jarring, is there really an expectation to blithely accept the claims?

Experience is subjective, so, basically, yeah, you do need to accept peoples' accounts of their own experiences at face value. You have no authority or ability to say, "Well, that wasn't REALLY your experience." You weren't there, you're not in their head, you don't get to say.

Like, if you said you were really happy on your wedding day, and I was like, "Pffft, you're just perpetuating a myth, no one is happy on their wedding day, prove it!" and then proceeded to poke holes in all your evidence ("People smile and laugh because they're nervous, you were just really nervous, not happy at all!"), that wouldn't show that you weren't actually happy on your wedding day. You say you're happy, happiness is subjective, okay, sure. I don't get to declare your experience invalid just because you can't convince me of it over the internet.

Is it really just enough to make the claim and everyone should accept it without comment or discussion?

There's plenty of room for discussion where experiences differ, there's just not much room for being an Internet Mind Reader and imagining that you know someone's true, secret motives that they just aren't mentioning.

I love the idea of the enemies of eladrin ripping out their eyes to prevent teleportation. It's awesome and brutal. Very medieval ("Prisoner? No, sir, you're not a prisoner, we're just going lop off yer hands here 'cuz that wealthy bloke accused you of stealin' a chicken. Whatchya mean, 'trial?'"). It's fun to think about that reaction, about the world that their blinking sets up if you take it through to its logical extremes.

The idea that the dude in the OP is secretly some edition warrior here just to push their anti-4e agenda through the Trojan Horse of blink elves isn't only less interesting, it's also presumptive and kind of domineering. People can lie about their experience, but it's impossible to catch them in that lie since experience is an internal, subjective thing, so it's pointless to ask them to PROVE that they've had that experience, and it shifts the conversation away from "unlimited teleportation" into "Is Poster X a LIAR?", which is just hostile and unnecessary. Not to mention impossible to prove or disprove because we're talking about someone's subjective experience, here.

Really, what harm does it do you to take someone who is describing their experience at their word? What do you lose if you accept that people honestly have different perspectives on things? Your experiences remain valid, too, so what's wrong with theirs? Why not play with the idea that eladrin teleportation might indeed drastically alter the setting if you'd allow it to, see what directions you might take it in? Why not just describe why it's not a big deal for you? What do you risk with accepting someone's view of their experiences as legit? Why would you WANT them to be lying?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I love the idea of the enemies of eladrin ripping out their eyes to prevent teleportation. It's awesome and brutal. Very medieval ("Prisoner? No, sir, you're not a prisoner, we're just going lop off yer hands here 'cuz that wealthy bloke accused you of stealin' a chicken. Whatchya mean, 'trial?'"). It's fun to think about that reaction, about the world that their blinking sets up if you take it through to its logical extremes.

I bet the eye gouging would have started with the eladrin themselves, in their own legal system.

Then, their first hostile encounter with non-eladrin, they'd gouge the eyes of their prisoners- some, at least- which would lead to some understandably hard feelings.

 

[MoonSong]

Experience is subjective, so, basically, yeah, you do need to accept peoples' accounts of their own experiences at face value. You have no authority or ability to say, "Well, that wasn't REALLY your experience." You weren't there, you're not in their head, you don't get to say.

Like, if you said you were really happy on your wedding day, and I was like, "Pffft, you're just perpetuating a myth, no one is happy on their wedding day, prove it!" and then proceeded to poke holes in all your evidence ("People smile and laugh because they're nervous, you were just really nervous, not happy at all!"), that wouldn't show that you weren't actually happy on your wedding day. You say you're happy, happiness is subjective, okay, sure. I don't get to declare your experience invalid just because you can't convince me of it over the internet.



There's plenty of room for discussion where experiences differ, there's just not much room for being an Internet Mind Reader and imagining that you know someone's true, secret motives that they just aren't mentioning.

I love the idea of the enemies of eladrin ripping out their eyes to prevent teleportation. It's awesome and brutal. Very medieval ("Prisoner? No, sir, you're not a prisoner, we're just going lop off yer hands here 'cuz that wealthy bloke accused you of stealin' a chicken. Whatchya mean, 'trial?'"). It's fun to think about that reaction, about the world that their blinking sets up if you take it through to its logical extremes.

The idea that the dude in the OP is secretly some edition warrior here just to push their anti-4e agenda through the Trojan Horse of blink elves isn't only less interesting, it's also presumptive and kind of domineering. People can lie about their experience, but it's impossible to catch them in that lie since experience is an internal, subjective thing, so it's pointless to ask them to PROVE that they've had that experience, and it shifts the conversation away from "unlimited teleportation" into "Is Poster X a LIAR?", which is just hostile and unnecessary. Not to mention impossible to prove or disprove because we're talking about someone's subjective experience, here.

Really, what harm does it do you to take someone who is describing their experience at their word? What do you lose if you accept that people honestly have different perspectives on things? Your experiences remain valid, too, so what's wrong with theirs? Why not play with the idea that eladrin teleportation might indeed drastically alter the setting if you'd allow it to, see what directions you might take it in? Why not just describe why it's not a big deal for you? What do you risk with accepting someone's view of their experiences as legit? Why would you WANT them to be lying?

sErioulsy, you need to stop being so eloquent, I cannot give more xp.

 

[billd91]

sErioulsy, you need to stop being so eloquent, I cannot give more xp.

I got you covered.

 

[skotothalamos]

You guys need to play Zeitgeist. These are fantastic ideas for the human-Eladrin war, and I'm stealing them all!

 

[I'm A Banana]

I bet the eye gouging would have started with the eladrin themselves, in their own legal system.

Then, their first hostile encounter with non-eladrin, they'd gouge the eyes of their prisoners- some, at least- which would lead to some understandably hard feelings.

Could be!

I kind of like the idea that eladrin have a more "refined" legal system, where they took care of their prisoners and expected repentance, all very gracious and modern. They tossed a bag over their head, sure, but they have a "noble" system of "justice" and are generally above such base brutality.

But then they go to war with some group of humans and the idea of that refined eladrin grace is just trashed. There's no attempt at redemption or even a trial or anything. Just a knife and some rope and five minutes to do the deed in. Might not even be guilty half the time, just done out of spite.

I like this because it really highlights the difference between the assumed nobility, grace, and peace of the great and powerful eladrin, and the more practical, if brutal, work of the varied humans of the world. Makes the humans more human and the eladrin more alien, really.

But that's just one take on it, for sure.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My thought was more like this: the Eladrin have a legal system somewhat like the Inuit near the Bering Strait. Most offenses are punished by shunning and rehabilitation efforts, but those who repeatedly breach the peace?

Those people are called "Kunlangeta"- Kunlangeta were supposedly tolerated until they could be shoved into the icy waters to drown by anyone in the community in a position to do so.

For the Eladrin, that level of perfidy would be punished by blinding, forever taking away the quintessential ability that they have... Over time, such a punishment might also be applied to captured prisoners...possibly with the intent to magically heal those so blinded. (Or perhaps the blinding is done with irritating chemicals, and so is non-permanent.)

When they first encountered the non-Eladrin, they had no knowledge those others could not teleport, and treated them like they would their own.

Misunderstanding ensues, leading to brutality.

Even absent such treatment in war, a non-Eladrin thief who, lulled by what he perceives to be the lax punishments of the Eladrin penal code, might commit crime after crime until his eyes were "untimely pluck'd." He tells his tales of woe to his countrymen and, as above, misunderstanding ensues, leading to brutality.