Forked Thread: Arcane Power Excerpts: Cunning Weapons

[evilbob]

Forked from: Arcane Power Excerpts: Feats

So as I started thinking about eladrin using cunning longswords to deliver -4 saves to all attacks, it occurred to me: why can't staff mages do that now?

Honestly, there's no reason they can't - unless the cunning property doesn't actually work that way, in which case it won't work for the eladrin longsword users, either.

Which brings me to a funny rules interpretation question: what do you do when something is specified in two different places in two different ways? For review, the cunning weapon entry says that "any melee" weapon can be cunning, and it has the following property:

Property: Against any effect delivered with this weapon that a save can end, the target takes a –2 penalty to saving throws.
Level 18 or 23: –3 penalty to saving throws.
Level 28: –4 penalty to saving throws.

Now, that leads me to believe that there is no reason a staff couldn't be cunning (it's a "melee weapon") and we've had clarifications from the FAQ question #17 that when you use a weapon as an implement, you gain the enhancement bonus and properties (but not powers) of the weapon. (Cunning has no powers.)

However, here's the funny bit: I am quoting the "weapon" introduction from the AV here:

To gain the benefit of a weapon’s property, you must be wielding the weapon. Unless specified otherwise, a property affects only the weapon to which it’s attached. For example, a +2 cunning dagger, which bestows a -2 penalty to an enemy’s saving throws against your weapon powers, affects
only powers that are delivered using that weapon. You couldn’t hold the weapon in your off-hand and gain the benefit of the property on powers delivered using a main weapon.

Now, that's talking about something else, but the funny thing is that it specifically mentions the cunning weapon, and it defines it differently than what the property says in a very important way. It defines it as being usable with weapon powers - not any power delivered through the weapon.

So... does the casual AV "properties" description of the power trump the FAQ ruling that properties can be used by weapons as implements, or does this mean that you can't actually use the cunning property of a weapon when you're using that weapon to cast implement powers? Or is there really any good reason a staff mage couldn't grab a cunning staff right now and use it for its save feature?

Thoughts?

 

[Lab_Monkey]

[Head Explodes]


I spend a tremendous amount of my time playing D&D, reading the books, reading the articles on D&Di, trolling the forums, and thinking about the game. For the most part, I feel like I really have a solid handle on the rules. But how to adjudicate the rules for weapons used as implements really just boggles my mind. As more and more supplements are introduced with news classes (using weapons as implements), items, feats, etc. are introduced, this just seems to get more and more confusing.

I'm sorry that this isn't a very informative addition to the thread, but I really feel like some kind of explicit clarification is warranted to clarify the RAI. It would be great if they did this with a design and development article. Further additions to the FAQ would be helpful as well.

 

[evilbob]

Right there with ya, Lab Monkey.

 

[franzel]

Forked from: Arcane Power Excerpts: Feats
Now, that's talking about something else, but the funny thing is that it specifically mentions the cunning weapon, and it defines it differently than what the property says in a very important way. It defines it as being usable with weapon powers - not any power delivered through the weapon.

So... does the casual AV "properties" description of the power trump the FAQ ruling that properties can be used by weapons as implements, or does this mean that you can't actually use the cunning property of a weapon when you're using that weapon to cast implement powers? Or is there really any good reason a staff mage couldn't grab a cunning staff right now and use it for its save feature?

Thoughts?

If I could just--

If you would allow me--

Excuse me for one moment.




Wow.

Ok, so first off: thanks for finding that quote in AV. It finally puts to rest the (IMO) silly notion that you can dual wield a subtle dagger and a bloodiron dagger and get both benefits on all attacks made with either weapon.

Whew.

The other thing it does is clarify (slightly) a curious CSR response from last week (or the week before) that said that any property/power/etc that mentions the word "weapon" can't be used if the weapon is used as an implement.

Problem I had with trying to use that as a general rule is that it blows the Weapon Focus FAQ entry out of the water entirely and forces you to make very arbitrary decisions on when the word "weapon" means "weapon power" and when it just means an item that happens to be a weapon, i.e. you could use the word "item" in its place and it would still have the same meaning.

That wording in the AV also means that a lot of the high DPR sorcerer builds won't work as designed. Makes you wonder about feats like TWF or TWO.

 

[Oompa]

It's quiet simple..

If a staff with the cunning property is used as a normal weapon, and you use a power with the "weapon" keyword, you gain the property..

If a staff is allowed as a implement, and you use a power with the "implement" keyword, you gain the property.

The example in the AV is a normal dagger, and not a pact blade...
A normal dagger would not be useable as a implement so you would gain only the property if used with a power with the "weapon" keyword..

 

[Oompa]

So if someone takes the feature to use a warhammer as a implement, he can use the cunning property in powers with the "implement" or "weapon" keyword.

 

[franzel]

It's quiet simple..

If a staff with the cunning property is used as a normal weapon, and you use a power with the "weapon" keyword, you gain the property..

If a staff is allowed as a implement, and you use a power with the "implement" keyword, you gain the property.

The example in the AV is a normal dagger, and not a pact blade...
A normal dagger would not be useable as a implement so you would gain only the property if used with a power with the "weapon" keyword..

I don't follow you. A pact blade cannot also be a cunning weapon: they're distinct types of magic weapons. So it's always a "normal" weapon that is turned into cunning or bloodiron or what-have-you.

If a staff is an implement (as it is for wizards and sorcerers) and it has a magic weapon property like Cunning, that property CANNOT be applied for implement powers due to the wording in the AV. As quoted above

[h3]Weapon Properties[/h3]

Many weapons have properties that provide a constant benefit. To gain the benefit of a weapon’s property, you must be wielding the weapon. Unless specified otherwise, a property affects only the weapon to which it’s attached. For example, a +2 cunning dagger, which bestows a –2 penalty to an enemy’s saving throws against your weapon powers, affects only powers that are delivered using that weapon. You couldn’t hold the weapon in your off-hand and gain the benefit of the property on powers delivered using a main weapon. (emphasis mine)

The only interpretation where you could still use a cunning weapon is if you assume that this general text is wrong. And that the specific wording in the weapon itself (which makes no mention of weapon powers) overrides the general text at the beginning of the section which does.

Tough call, Ripley. Tough call.

 

[evilbob]

It's quiet simple..

Of all things, I know it is not simple.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the confusion is. The general entry on weapons in AV only talks about weapon properties and weapon keyword powers. The Cunning Weapon property is specific and talks about ANY power delivered with the weapon, it does not specify it cannot be an implement power.

Thus the ONLY rule that needs to be interpreted is the propery of Cunning Weapon. It says "delivered with this weapon" and the sticky point is only does that phrase mean only weapon powers are "delivered with a weapon" or are implement powers also delivered with weapons when they are used as implements. The FAQ entry suggests they ARE, and thus a Cunning Staff would indeed deliver implement attack powers with a -2 save.

There is a bit to go through, but I THINK it is clear. Sans specific text in a magic weapon that says otherwise, its properties apply to both weapon and implement powers.

It is fairly obvious that WotC never considered weapons and implements conjoined when they designed 4e. It just wasn't considered. Had it been perhaps they would have written the descriptions of magic weapons more carefully and used terms like "item" instead of "weapon" so it would be clear.

 

[evilbob]

Here's a new wrench in the works that I just discovered:

Can a staff be cunning?

Cunning applies to any melee weapon, but there are some who argue that a staff is a different thing than a quarterstaff: specifically, that a quarterstaff is a weapon but a staff is an implement. The staff entry in the PHB says specifically that it can be used as a weapon, and that does not necessarily mean the reverse is true, but on the other hand I am positive (thanks to PHB FAQ #21) that you can take Weapon Focus and apply it to staff damage, so... Can a staff be given the cunning property, or does it not count as a weapon?


Regardless, I have sent many a question to Cust Serv so that I can come back and their responses be called lies and ridiculed.