Forked Thread: Arcane Power Excerpts: Cunning Weapons

[cdrcjsn]

You think that's mindblowing, answer me this.

Do halfling staff wizards exist?

A quarterstaff is medium sized, meaning that small creatures can't wield it.

The Staff implement doesn't outright say that it's a quarterstaff, just that it can be treated as one when used as a melee weapon.

Implements specify that they have to be wielded to be used.

There are no specific rules on how to wield implements properly.

If a staff can be wielded in one hand when used as an implement, then that opens up dual staff wizards.

If they need two hands to be wielded, then that rules out halfling and gnomes as ever taking up the staff as an implement.

It makes my head hurt.

 

[evilbob]

I think it's fairly well accepted that staffs only take one hand to wield, either because a) they're not quarterstaffs and so they have their own rules (even tho they can be used as a quarterstaff), or b) small characters couldn't wield them, like you said. Also, if a wizard can't use a staff and an orb at the same time "second implement" would be pretty worthless.

 

[Caliban]

You can wield a staff in 1 hand when using it as an implement, but it requires two-hands to use it as a weapon.

Based on the FAQ question 21, if you choose to wield a staff in 2 hands when using it as an implement, you can take advantage of certain feats that give bonuses to the when it is wielded as a weapon (weapon focus and Two-weapon fighting if you also have the Staff Fighting feat).

Basically, a staff is a quarterstaff when wielded in two hands. It counts as both a weapon and implement at the same time, and can be used as either.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I agree with Caliban. That does seem to be the consensus on staves. Even if it weren't so, consider. Nothing in the rules says a halfling can't wield a staff in two hands, as an implement. Even if such a requirement existed. No doubt a halfling cannot wield a staff as a weapon in two hands, but they are simply not the same rules.

One thing is for sure. If wizards can get all the weapon feat bonuses available to a staff then it sure is the king of implements. Wands were supposed to be for accuracy, but even just allowing weapon spec on a staff means the staff is far better in every possible respect. There needs to be some serious reworking of the implement rules...

 

[pauljathome]

If one cannot use a cunning longsword with spells doesn't that make the Eladrin Sword feat and the WotS Paragon Path close to useless, at least for straight wizards? You get to do a little more damage with a melee sword attack and an opportunity attack. Be still my beating heart .

 

[franzel]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the confusion is. The general entry on weapons in AV only talks about weapon properties and weapon keyword powers. The Cunning Weapon property is specific and talks about ANY power delivered with the weapon, it does not specify it cannot be an implement power.

Thus the ONLY rule that needs to be interpreted is the propery of Cunning Weapon. It says "delivered with this weapon" and the sticky point is only does that phrase mean only weapon powers are "delivered with a weapon" or are implement powers also delivered with weapons when they are used as implements. The FAQ entry suggests they ARE, and thus a Cunning Staff would indeed deliver implement attack powers with a -2 save.

Except that the general entry on weapons in AV uses Cunning Weapon as its specific example. So it is clarifying that Cunning weapon should only apply to weapon powers. Or it is wrong. Either way, the section just adds to the confusion.

Quoting again

For example, a +2 cunning dagger, which bestows a –2 penalty to an enemy’s saving throws against your weapon powers, affects only powers that are delivered using that weapon.

(emphasis mine)

 

[cdrcjsn]

You can wield a staff in 1 hand when using it as an implement, but it requires two-hands to use it as a weapon.

I agree that many people assume this and accept this as fact.

But I've looked at the rules and this isn't actually stated anywhere. Everyone's just assuming that a staff implement is wielded differently from a quarterstaff.

Yes, a staff implement isn't necessarily a quarterstaff. It is described as being similar though and there's no evidence it isn't wielded in the same manner.

Basically, there's no rules on the proper way to wield a staff implement, but there are descriptions where it implies that they are equivalent to quarterstaves.

 

[pauljathome]

The staff is described as "fashioned either as a quarterstaff or as a walking stick".
Although there are no explicit rules, I'd claim that a wallking stick is wielded by one
hand.

 

[Rechan]

As more and more supplements are introduced with news classes (using weapons as implements), items, feats, etc. are introduced, this just seems to get more and more confusing.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm starting to think that implements (What implement a class can use), weapons, etc, don't freaking matter.

What would happen if any class could use any implement? If a wizard could use a warhammer as an implement (but not the proficiency bonus)?

The only real difference between the implements: what the class gets from those implements (Wizard Implement specialization), and how certain properties/powers facilitate those classes, and holy symbols (Which don't have to be held).

I'm starting to get to the point where I would say 'go ahead and use whatever you want, but if you come up with a really nasty broken combo (like cunning weapon + paragon/feat/epic destiny combo = -20 to saves) then I say "No".

That would cut down on a lot of the subsystem of jumping through hoops to get this implement to work with that class/race combo.

Now, certain items have cool powers (Pact daggers/pact swords), but certain items lose how cool they are (crusader weapons, holy avengers).

 

[Caliban]

I agree that many people assume this and accept this as fact.

Because it's been confirmed multiple times by customer service, and because it makes the most sense. It is also indirectly references in question 21 of the PHB.