Forked Thread: Healing Surges: Let's see them in Action!

[Jeff Wilder]

Yep, he was suffering from the "slowed" condition. How would he have been modeled in previous games?

"What are 'caltrops,' Alex, FTW?"

 

[D'karr]

"What are 'caltrops,' Alex, FTW?"

So there is a mechanic in both games that slows the character down. So how is he "better" modeled in pre-4e HP?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

So there is a mechanic in both games that slows the character down. So how is he "better" modeled in pre-4e HP?

This has been covered many, many times. Let's just say I prefer a model in which when the DM says someone is "beat up and injured," it actually means something game mechanically, even if all it means is "less capable in a fight than he would be if he weren't beat up and injured." You don't grok. That's okay.

 

[Scribble]

Its just a style difference. The older systems weren't perfect but they modeled PC's a bit closer to real people than four color superheroes.

The slower recovery (without magic) was an important reminder that even though the PC's are heroes, they are still people, and can be injured rather severely.

If the DM and players are happy with the superhero approach then go for it. Its one thing that dips its spandex foot into my tub of traditional fantasy a bit too deep for my liking.

See I find this interesting because I feel it (like I feel most stuff in gaming) is only that way because YOU have chosen to view it that way.

I've never liked the idea of mapping HP to physical damage pretty much for this reason. If you do that in my opinion THAT brings out the super hero thing.

Someone jumps off a cliff and it doesn't do enough damage to kill him? Someone takes 10 arrows and it doesn't kill him?

For me the ONLY time a character takes a deadly wound is when, well he dies. The very last hit.

As such, HP damage isn't always a "hit." It's a hit as far as the dice are concerned, but not as far as the character is.

It's that moment in the movie when say, the hero looks down and sees the arrow has just hit right between his legs. It narrowly missed him in the story, but his character takes HP damage.

It's that scene were the hero falls off the ledge sure, but manages to grab just enough roots, broken earth clumps, ledges, branches whatever- to keep himself slow enough to not die. He's not kileld, but he takes HP damage.

It's a show of how much ability your character has to not be killed.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Some keep calling it that (superheroes) but I'd say that is looking at previous editions through rose colored glasses. D&D Heroes have never been close to real people. How many HP did a commoner in 1e have. That was static too, he always had that amount. In 3e, the commoner now can be a 20th level commoner and be a superhero himself, but the average 20th level adventurer still left him in the dust. 4e is no different.

When compared to "real people", the real people are left far behind in any edition of D&D.

I will stand up and be counted as one who thinks the 20th level commoner was ridiculous

4E is different though. Yes adventurers in any D&D can do things and take hits that would kill any real person.

Your 1E commoner example is perfect. Lets say this commoner allied himself with a D&D Hero to storm the castle of an evil baron. They walk side by side as catapults hurl rocks at them. They are both struck with large stones and each take 16 points of damage. The commoner is crushed-only his feet are visible beneath the rock. The D&D hero is struck solidly on the shoulder reducing his hp by about 50%. A retreat is called and the hero returns to camp.

In 1E:
The commoner (real person) is dead.
The hero tends his wounds and sleeps. In the morning, that shoulder will be hurting, the hero will be less than 100% effective, but can fight again.

In 4E:The commoner (real person) is dead.
The hero tends his wounds and sleeps. In the morning he will be fit as a fiddle. There is no indication at all that he was injured and the hero fights again.

The difference is that in addition to taking the kind of hits that kill a regular guy ( that PC's in every edition have been doing) the hero is instantly "reset" to full capacity no matter how severe the damage.

The action movie examples tend to back up the high HP model rather than the surge model when you look at them. The action hero isn't taking a second wind in many of these situations. A lot of what appear to be surges are more like a high HP hero being in a fight, rolling crappy in the beginning, rallying, and rolling crits at the end of the fight while the opponents does the opposite.

If the hero used surges during a break to get back hp then he or she would be refreshed and at full capacity. When Rocky sits down in his corner after having his face turned to hamburger, Mick says " you're a bum! Get your ass back in there and give me a crit!!!" Rocky gets back up, as beat up as ever, rolls a 20 and wins the fight. His hp are still down. He didn't get to surge, he just performed at the critical moment to get the victory. Even though he is a hero, Rocky is still a person and won't be ready to box another match in 6 hours.

A 4E Rocky would get a surge and some added bonus from the inspiring words of Mick the warlord. The damage and fatigue from getting punched would fade somewhat allowing him to continue. His stamina replenished, Rocky returns to the ring hitting Clubber Lang about 50% of the time until Clubber finally drops. Rocky takes a shower and prepares for tomorrows fight with Ivan Drago.

 

[ExploderWizard]

See I find this interesting because I feel it (like I feel most stuff in gaming) is only that way because YOU have chosen to view it that way.

I've never liked the idea of mapping HP to physical damage pretty much for this reason. If you do that in my opinion THAT brings out the super hero thing.

Its not really about view choice, its about mechanics to represent something or the lack thereof. If you read my previous posts, you will see that I agree that hp are abstract and a poor way to model injury. The superhero thing is simply a consequence of all D&D characters healing hp like trolls and no other mechanic introduced to model slow recovery in its place.

 

[Scribble]

Its not really about view choice, its about mechanics to represent something or the lack thereof. If you read my previous posts, you will see that I agree that hp are abstract and a poor way to model injury. The superhero thing is simply a consequence of all D&D characters healing hp like trolls and no other mechanic introduced to model slow recovery in its place.

See again, I see this as someone choosing to view HP as only intended to model physical damage (even if poorly.)

Characters aren't healing HP like trolls. The game is simply returning the players ability to not be dead. In story this can be anything you want it to be. A good nights sleep, a good set of bandages, an inspiring speach. Whatever. The characetrs ability to not get killed is returned.

Thats the thing of it for me. It's the ability to not get killed vers the ability to "take a lot of damage."

There's no slow recovery of injuries mechanic because I feel the game doesn't need it in a similar way that it doesn't need a mechanic to determine if you fall in love, or dislike fish, or get cancer.

Those types of things (in my opinion) are best when introduced as an out of norm effect, and not just an effect with a random chance of occuring.

If Bob and his DM want to explore the possibility of Bob's character loosing a leg in battle cool. Bob having a 5% chance of loosing his leg everyfight... not so great.

That said, I don't think it's wrong for someone to want to play with those things being random occurances, but I don't think D&D has ever really been that game, and I don't think the majority of players want to play it that way.

So I think the burdon of altering it should be on the smaller population.

I also think 4e also offers a number of rules already that you can modify to meet these needs.

 

[Hussar]

The healing surge mechanic can be found in some movies and in other movies it is not used. I'm not sure what the point is in pointing out examples of each. Some people like movies where the hero is plotted that way, some people don't. Some people like heroes in movies acting that way but don't want to run/play in rpgs like that.
/snip

Well, I cannot speak for anyone else, but, I did clearly state early on that I in no way meant this as an edition war. That earlier editions could model damage a certain way in no way changes things for me. I'm not talking about earlier editions.

The claim on the table, for me, is that I'm being told that there is no possible way to narrate 4e damage. That the damage is so abstract that all narration is impossible. Well, I've, and several other people, have shown that you can model all sorts of scenes using 4e mechanics and it makes pretty good sense.

That you can do it another way is immiterial in my opinion. Many games use many different hit point mechanics. This is the first time I've ever been told that the hit point mechanics cannot possibly be narrated.

 

[Hussar]

Its not really about view choice, its about mechanics to represent something or the lack thereof. If you read my previous posts, you will see that I agree that hp are abstract and a poor way to model injury. The superhero thing is simply a consequence of all D&D characters healing hp like trolls and no other mechanic introduced to model slow recovery in its place.

So the fact that 4e hit point mechanics can model scenes from Tolkien, Rambo First Blood, and A Princess of Mars, all of which are about as far removed from superheroes as you can get is just something you completely block out and ignore?

 

[ExploderWizard]

See again, I see this as someone choosing to view HP as only intended to model physical damage (even if poorly.)

Characters aren't healing HP like trolls. The game is simply returning the players ability to not be dead. In story this can be anything you want it to be. A good nights sleep, a good set of bandages, an inspiring speach. Whatever. The characetrs ability to not get killed is returned.

Thats the thing of it for me. It's the ability to not get killed vers the ability to "take a lot of damage."

Ok Hp are not damage at all. What do people see when someone is on the ground making death checks? In a game without save or die effects but WITH dying there is bound to be a condition in between just fine and dying. This condition is usually referred to as damaged. Are the PCs in life or death combat or just doing the safety dance with thier foes and using hp to keep score?

Unless the fine weapons usually served in the campaign have been replaced with walkie talkies, there will probably be some damage going on in combat. It is still a combat sport right? Of course not every hit will be a mighty gash spewing blood. It could represent the energy expended parrying, or a scrape. The point is that by the time someone is on the ground making death checks there is usually a cause. I can't envision a PC literally dying from a narrow miss, or from being demoralized.