[Forked Thread: How Important is Magic..?] 5 things you need to know

[xechnao]

State 5 works of fantasy from any medium that may contain influences which D&D should sooner or later acknowledge in its approach toward fantasy.

To participate in this thread without getting angry or annoyed, you do have to accept:
- that many D&Ders see tradition as vital for the game, but for as long as we are discussing this, it has taken a prolonged vacation somewhere far away.
- that the influences which shaped D&D will over time be replaced by more modern influences.
- that this is a good thing.

Well, what is fantasy about today? Does it have a new trope-ideology or something? Or are we talking about commercial fan tropes? These are like a pop music hits-they change all the time. Follow the hit and but in three years it will be considered demode to another, newer hit.

I would say D&D should try more to build itself on classic mythology. No Tolkien -leave this to another company- but directly to the source: Fenris, Pandora's Box, Chariot of Ra or Horus -stuff like that.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

I dunno, fantasy fads (at least for stuff like novels) seem to last longer then most. You figure the angle that SoIaF went while it is no longer leading that as much (thus my original statement back a number of threads) is still going strong with lots of different authors running with that angle. The first book came out in the 90's so, 10+ years there.

Steampunk novels and sub-culture in general has been growing steadily in popularity for a while too. It has been growing strong since... Well I guess The Difference Engine, but probably really hit it big around 2000.

I would say, if we put a average D&D edition lifetime around 10 years, give or take a few. That one could reasonably well take fads in fantasy that are popular at the time and expect it to stay so throughout the life of the edition.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Well, what is fantasy about today? Does it have a new trope-ideology or something? Or are we talking about commercial fan tropes? These are like a pop music hits-they change all the time. Follow the hit and but in three years it will be considered demode to another, newer hit.

I would say D&D should try more to build itself on classic mythology. No Tolkien -leave this to another company- but directly to the source: Fenris, Pandora's Box, Chariot of Ra or Horus -stuff like that.

I´ll try to adress this again: this thread is based on the idea that modern fantasy is more than a fad, and that including certain concepts that can be found therein into D&D is a good idead. The whole point of this thread is to contribute your own examples of modern fantasy and try to glean what makes them viable as positive influences.

In order for this thread to work, i asked that we forget for a time the strong, extremely well fortified and fan-defended influences in D&Ds core of fantasy.

So, if you want to:
- tell me that D&D should primarily feed itself out of its core influences of old.
- tell me that modern fantasy is just an assortement of fads, not to be taken seriously as enriching influence for D&D
- tell me that [genre / flavour of fantasy] should not be added to D&D at all
- tell me that adding new stuff to D&D is not what we should talk about at all
please fork a thread. I will participate if my time allows.

I know that there are many members on these board who would fight tooth & nail to reduce the influences on D&D to
a) what they find appropriate
b) what has influenced D&D all along
c) everything that does not contain buster swords and/or people on my lawn.
Thats not what i want to talk about.

I am also absolutely uninterested in
a) convincing you that modern fantasy has any merits and
b) justifying the core tenets of this thread
c) turning he thread into a totally different direction ("you know, how about that we forget about modern fantasy - what do you think about the Iliad as an influence for D&D?")

I hope that this does not sound too aggressive, but this thread is not about something that actually should happen to D&D in the next couple of supplements. It is a thought experiment, at best trying to create advice for DMs to include something in their campaigns. Please lets treat it like that.

 

[Ariosto]

Keefe the Thief: What is "modern fantasy" to you? What is your definition of the phenomenon "D&D" in which things are included or not included? What do you mean by "including"?

 

[Mark]

I´ll try to adress this again: this thread is based on the idea that modern fantasy is more than a fad, and that including certain concepts that can be found therein into D&D is a good idead.

I think one of the basic points of contention is in the definition of modern fantasy. I suggest looking toward fantasy movies of the last decade that have had very wide appeal and huge box office hauls. Others look toward specific relatively recent releases in genre fiction or anime, but I am seeing that there is not a consensus on which of these to look toward, nor even a consensus on what of this is popular or even widely known. If the goal is to draw more new gamers to the hobby, what is more likely to be recognized by a larger number of non-gamers? Is it best to have the core recognizable to most new gamers and have supplemental material available that targets people in more narrow camps?

 

[Aberzanzorax]

I´ll try to adress this again: this thread is based on the idea that modern fantasy is more than a fad, and that including certain concepts that can be found therein into D&D is a good idead. The whole point of this thread is to contribute your own examples of modern fantasy and try to glean what makes them viable as positive influences.

In order for this thread to work, i asked that we forget for a time the strong, extremely well fortified and fan-defended influences in D&Ds core of fantasy.

So, if you want to:
- tell me that D&D should primarily feed itself out of its core influences of old.
- tell me that modern fantasy is just an assortement of fads, not to be taken seriously as enriching influence for D&D
- tell me that [genre / flavour of fantasy] should not be added to D&D at all
- tell me that adding new stuff to D&D is not what we should talk about at all
please fork a thread. I will participate if my time allows.

I know that there are many members on these board who would fight tooth & nail to reduce the influences on D&D to
a) what they find appropriate
b) what has influenced D&D all along
c) everything that does not contain buster swords and/or people on my lawn.
Thats not what i want to talk about.

I am also absolutely uninterested in
a) convincing you that modern fantasy has any merits and
b) justifying the core tenets of this thread
c) turning he thread into a totally different direction ("you know, how about that we forget about modern fantasy - what do you think about the Iliad as an influence for D&D?")

I hope that this does not sound too aggressive, but this thread is not about something that actually should happen to D&D in the next couple of supplements. It is a thought experiment, at best trying to create advice for DMs to include something in their campaigns. Please lets treat it like that.

Man, I just don't get this. It's like you want do define modern fantasy as "anything that has magic." Are there even limits or boundaries as to what modern fantasy is, given the limitiations you've put into the quoted post?

I'm not insulted/angered/emotionally turned off by the quoted post, but man, it seems quite limiting as to how we can "appropriately respond" while at the same time expanding "modern fantasy" to just about the whole world of literature and movies.

Anime?
Steampunk?
Would starship troopers fit?
WWII demons and technology (as per Hellboy)?


It's like you've asked "how do we add guns to D&D and still call it D&D?"

When the answer was: you don't. If you add guns/lazers/lightsabers/etc. it then has crossed a line and ceases to be D&D.


While it's clear from other threads that D&D is not a single monolithic entity with defined boundaries, it is still a realm/genre that has edges. They are wispy, but there are clearly things that are beyond those edges. Add just one of those items...ok, make orcs Klingons...and it doesn't cease to be D&D. But add in the borg, a guy named DATA who is a cyborg, warp drives, space ships, and such...and it isn't modern fantasy. It also isn't D&D.


I fear, at least from my own perspective, that you've asked a completely reasonable question and then put strictures around it that make it impossible to answer.

 

[xechnao]

It is a thought experiment, at best trying to create advice for DMs to include something in their campaigns. Please lets treat it like that.

Dunno really. With the quality of cinematographic and visual effects topping a high and constant standard impressing people with a hit for more than a season becomes harder and harder. IP development based on plot development seems to be more important. In other words archetypes do not seem to impress anymore as they used to for the long run.

And the appeal of stuff like heroes, lost, twilight or Harry Potter seem beyond D&D. Xena was linkable but stuff like Xena do not seem to impress anymore. In the market anime is not what it used to be. Neither fantasy novels are not what they used to be.

The problem with your question here is that it wants to link the gonzo aspect of D&D based on archetypes to something more conventionally developed regarding modern cultural consumption. I do not see how this makes any actual sense. But I am all ears if you can elaborate more to help me make some sense out of this.

 

[Herobizkit]

I take it you've never encountered a DM who ran orcs like Klingons. That was quite popular were I'm from.

My currernt take on this:

Klingons = Dwarves
Ferengi = Goblins
Vulcans = Grey Elves
Cardassians = Drow

I haven't ventured much past this point, but it all makes sense to me.

 

[rounser]

Gary didn´t design the game in a way so that you had it easier getting into it if you had read Conan or Leiber. He did it that way because this was his idea of appropriate fantasy for D&D. I think a modern D&D edition should be pretty unashamed about reinvent itself in such a way that it allows those who use and know modern media to have an easier time of picking it up. I´d go so far to collect a suggested-reading list in the first corebook that tells you "if you´ve read/played/watched this, this is for you."

I think it's dishonest to use Gary Gygax's name to justify 4E. He didn't support it, and IMO with good reason. IMO, rather being the leader in defining genre that it once was, it is now something of a confused cypher, losing contact with the mythological resonance and strong archetypes it once had. I think the difference might be that he chose his sources and influences wisely, and didn't put such contrived material into the implied setting.

 

[Ariosto]

Actually, the scope need not be restricted to the medieval; it can stretch from the prehistoric to the imagined future.

There is no reason that players cannot be allowed to play as virtually anything, provided they begin relatively weak and work up to the top, i.e., a player wishing to be a Dragon would have to begin as let us say, a "young" one and progress upwards in the usual manner, steps being predetermined by the campaign referee.

There is no practical limitation to the variety of monsters possible. In the campaigns associated with the play-testing of these rules there have either appeared or been postulated such creatures as: ... Robots, Golems, Androids: Self-explanatory monsters which are totally subjective as far as characteristics are concerned.

There should be no "natural laws" which are certain. Space could be passable because it is filled with breathable air. On the other hand the stars could be tiny lights only a few hundred miles away. Some areas of land could be gates into other worlds, dimensions, times, or whatever.

WILDERNESS WANDERING MONSTERS Desert (Mars): 7 (Red Martians), 8 (Tharks), [etc.]; Optional Arid Plains: 1 Apts, 2 Banths, 3 Thoats, 4 Calots, [etc.]

Supplement II (the High Priest of the Temple of the Frog), Supplement III (psionics, the Machine of Lum the Mad, the Mighty Servant of Leuk-O), Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, Metamorphosis Alpha, Empire of the Petal Throne ...