[Forked Thread: How Important is Magic..?] 5 things you need to know

[jmucchiello]

That's a pretty passive-agressive response. The OP was not suggesting that this is what "modern fantasy" is, but what he would like to see in something that represents modern fantasy. His preferences, clearly stated.

Nothing passive aggressive about it. He is saying "This is what is hip in Fantasy now and D&D should reflect what is hip in order to attract today's fantasy fans." All I said was "Apparently I'm not hip."

Believe me, it was far more a lamenting on my own aging than an attack on the OP.

 

[Imaro]

I disagree. While specific books might come and go, the underlying trends do not. And a lot of these trends are... lets call it "mergable" with D&D style fantasy. That is, they can't be imported wholesale, but aspects of them can be merged with existing tropes.

Lets take out specific books and just talk genres:

1. New Weird
2. Steampunk
3. Romantic Fantasy
4. What can only roughly be termed "asian influenced."
5. Modern Dark
6. Maybe Modern Contemporary Goth?
7. Young adult
8. Urban Fantasy

So maybe China Mieville, Jay Lake, Mercedes Lackey, Miyazaki, Joe Abercrombie, Stephanie Meyer, J K Rowling, and Jim Butcher will turn out to be passing fads.* But even if that's so, they're just single examples from whole genres that I feel pretty safe in concluding will exist long after they're gone.

*I am very certain that some of the alleged classical greats are actually much less read than are Mercedes Lackey and Jim Butcher. I'd give Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser a 50 year head start and still expect them to lose a popularity contest versus Valdemar, presuming that the sample group was "people who read fantasy novels" instead of "males over the age of 30 who read fantasy novels."

I guess with looking at genres though a few questions arise...

1. Are the tropes in all the genres that will inform the baseline for D&D compatible (and do they actually create perhaps a less popular genre when combined than when seperate)?

2. To what extent will these genres be supported throughout the lifetime of the base D&D game (My biggest example is Eberron which was billed as not just pulp but also dark fantasy and noir... yet very little in the sourcebooks touched on dark fantasy tropes or noir sensibilities but in fact became more and more Indiana Jones style pulp)

3. Is a hodgepodge the best basis or is a simple and easily modifiable baseline better for the basis of D&D? (I personally think the latter, like the WoD the basis should be what the majority of your market is familiar with (I would claim Tolkienesque fantasy but I could be wrong) and then from their you release toolbox supplements to tweak the game in personal directions...sort of like the Heroes of Horror book for 3.5...). I just don't think everythig thrown in a pot necessarily makes the best generic base for peoples campaigns.

I mean there are people who don't like steampunk but may like everything else on the list, however if a large portion of the game assumes steampunk you will loose these consumers... ditto with romantic fantasy (especially with so many playing a beer & pretzels, kill em & take stuff game), and so on... But I could be wrong.

 

[jmucchiello]

1. New Weird
2. Steampunk
3. Romantic Fantasy
4. What can only roughly be termed "asian influenced."
5. Modern Dark
6. Maybe Modern Contemporary Goth?
7. Young adult
8. Urban Fantasy

My problem with this list is I have no idea what New Weird is except that wikipedia puts Mieville (whom I still, one day later, have not read ) in the category. What is the difference between Modern Dark (a latte?) and Contemporary Goth? What category goes with Recluse (last book I read) or J.V.Jones' Ice series (the before that)?

Using specific authors helps because you don't need the labels at that point.

 

[jmucchiello]

playing a beer & pretzels, kill em & take stuff game

Are there novels in this style/genre? I'm curious.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Even if we ignore the questions IF these modern developments should be aknowledged by D&D, the question stands... how? I would be ready to endure prolonged bodily pain if that brought a 4e New Crobuzon Setting Book to light. But i´m not sure if this is the perfect approach - focusing on a classical setting book.

I´d rather think that we / the designers should try to take the best of those examples for modern fantasy, distill it down and include it in D&D in a certain way. That is, try to analyse what is the biggest boon in the IPs already mentioned and include selected aspecst in D&D. IMHO, the times when one creative mind decided what kind of fantasy should be included in D&D will never (and should never) come back. The game has moved beyond such simple times of internal concept management.

 

[Cadfan]

My problem with this list is I have no idea what New Weird is except that wikipedia puts Mieville (whom I still, one day later, have not read ) in the category. What is the difference between Modern Dark (a latte?) and Contemporary Goth? What category goes with Recluse (last book I read) or J.V.Jones' Ice series (the before that)?

Using specific authors helps because you don't need the labels at that point.

Fair enough.

New Weird is Mieville, but also Gaiman and Gilman and Swainston and maybe Alan Campbell and some others. Its hallmark tends to be taking something really "weird" and making it common place, then delving deep into realistic world building based on a weird premise. There are usually political overtones, since the world building tends to be more society and politics oriented than "monsters go here," but I'm not sure that's intrinsic to the sub genre rather than just the tendencies of certain authors. Swainston, for example, isn't very political, though she's laid the groundwork for it if she chooses in subsequent books.

Modern Dark tends to be Sword and Sorcery, except bitter, angry, and hateful. Not everyone divides Dark fantasy into older and modern. Examples include Joe Abercrombie or Richard K. Morgan. Imagine a world much like that of the Gray Mouser, where heroes drink and wench, because tomorrow they may die. Now change it so that they're not heroes, they're just bastards with swords who murder people. And instead of wenching they're hiring prostitutes or worse, and the book drags you through the misery and the degredation. These books tend not to be happy places. They tend to involve heroes with flaws, much like regular sword and sorcery, except instead of relatively benign flaws or romantic flaws, they're flaws like "beats women" or "tends to black out and stab his friends to death."

Contemporary Goth is... not one I'm as familiar with as I am with the others. Vampire books.

J. V. Jones is great, as is the Ice series. We have a character inspired by her writing in our current game- he's from a Hammer Lodge. I'm not sure where to classify her. She's got a little bit of a dark edge. If you like her books but want more blood, try Joe Abercrombie. If you want more angst, try Carol Berg.

I don't know Recluse.

 

[Hereticus]

"playing a beer & pretzels, kill em & take stuff game"

Are there novels in this style/genre? I'm curious.

Animal House?

 

[xechnao]

I am not sure I understand the question of the OP. Is this about what a modern vanilla fantasy rpg should relate to or what modern fantasy sources the 4e PHB invokes on a person?

 

[Cadfan]

I´d rather think that we / the designers should try to take the best of those examples for modern fantasy, distill it down and include it in D&D in a certain way. That is, try to analyse what is the biggest boon in the IPs already mentioned and include selected aspecst in D&D.

Yeah.

Some are easier than others.

Romantic Fantasy, for example, can be done with some class options and maybe some advice for players and DMs. A genre book like Heroes of X from 3e could do this.

A lot of the anime influences, hated as they may be by some, can be accomplished almost seamlessly by designing appropriate classes, and may already be due as part of the ki power source.

Urban Fantasy is accomplishable with DM advice and maybe a genre book.

Steampunk is partially urban fantasy, most of the time. It would need some character options to really fill it out. This is one of the harder ones, though, due to the way steampunk tends to replace magic rather than coexist with it. Still, there are games out there that fuse steampunk and traditional fantasy, like the Privateer Press gameworld.

 

[Imaro]

Fair enough.

...Modern Dark tends to be Sword and Sorcery, except bitter, angry, and hateful. Not everyone divides Dark fantasy into older and modern. Examples include Joe Abercrombie or Richard K. Morgan. Imagine a world much like that of the Gray Mouser, where heroes drink and wench, because tomorrow they may die. Now change it so that they're not heroes, they're just bastards with swords who murder people. And instead of wenching they're hiring prostitutes or worse, and the book drags you through the misery and the degredation. These books tend not to be happy places. They tend to involve heroes with flaws, much like regular sword and sorcery, except instead of relatively benign flaws or romantic flaws, they're flaws like "beats women" or "tends to black out and stab his friends to death."

Dude... I'll explore some morally gray areas, but I don't want my son to look through my D&D books and see a "Beats Women Before Lunch" Heroic feat in my D&D corebooks.