Forked Thread: KotShadowfell wierdness/plotholes.

[Ruin Explorer]

Forked from: The Lethality of Keep on the Shadowfell (Paging Mr. Mearls or Cordell)

Sir Keegan flips out one night, right, stabs everyone, gets chased into the catacombs, nearly mortally.

That's all fine.

However, it is then UTTERLY INEXPLICABLE how he comes to have a fully-built tomb (!!!!) when none of the previous commanders have had (apparently), and was presumably not exactly ailing, considering how many people he killed one-on-one and that he was wife + young children age, and that this tomb is beneath the castle (?! Rather in y'know, a graveyard or somewhere), and that this inexplicable tomb is guarded by GOOD GUY undead who serve BAHAMUT (WHAT?!?!) and who are infinite in number (WHAT?! Bahamut has infinite undead?) and that this is despite it all being in a place where Orcus holds power. Note that the fact that they serve Bahamut is made clear by the way praying to Bahamut makes them calm down and go politely back into their sarcophagi, rather than blowing up or being searing with light or whatever.

Now, it's just about possible the "infinite undead" are there to keep Sir Keegan in (though I don't believe he's allowed to leave his room anyway), but they still don't make any sense. And it's just possible he decided to go into someone else's tomb(!!!) and hide in the coffin (!!!!!!!) before drinking his poison, but that's pretty far out, I think you'll agree.

It's severely one of those "Don't think about. At all." things, like the ceiling-rats.

This isn't the only plot-hole in KotS, but it's a pretty severe one, and I know my players will notice it unless I alter it significantly. It's also the kind of plot-hole that my adventures would have had when I was 12, but that had vanished by the time I was about 15, which is why I find it kind of curious in an allegedly professionally written adventure.

It's clear that the tomb wasn't intended for him, as "The Real Story" says it was a "secret tomb within the dungeons". Which completely fails to explain why that tomb was empty, and why it's blessed to Bahamut and why the undead serve Bahamut in an Orcus-infested keep (and not y'know Orcus Lord of the UNDEAD!).

Any suggestions for helping me to make this make sense? Did you encounter anything equally wierd or illogical-seeming? At least the ceiling-rats are easy to solve, simply by removing them from the ceilings.

 

[ExploderWizard]

You might not want to hear this but you might be thinking too hard about fantasy. Accept it for what it is or play something that makes more sense.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You might not want to hear this but you might be thinking too hard about fantasy. Accept it for what it is or play something that makes more sense.

No, that's a cop-out response. Just because it's fantasy, doesn't mean it shouldn't follow a logical flow. All good fantasy, without exception, follows a logical flow. Indeed, in my experience, fantasy novels and films typically have fewer plot holes than your average Hollywood blockbuster.

There's no reason why something written by professionals should have a plot hole you can fly a 747 through, like this does. Nor rats that go on the ceiling.

 

[Nifft]

Sir K.'s depraved acts of depraved murder caused a pool of dark death energies to form. When he took his poison and prayed to $DEITY, instead of the divine gift of forgiveness granting him eternal peace, instead he was turned into a unique type of undead -- and the pool of darkness persisted.

Sir K.'s undead body did receive some divine gifts, though. He (mostly) retained his free will.

Who built the tomb and temple? Sir Keegan. With his own cold, dead hands.

Why did he build it? Because he wanted to "offset" the local pool of shadow energy he'd created, both so he could retain his free will, and so he could reduce the dark energy in general. Unfortunately, it didn't quite work, and all he was able to do was create an oasis of light in the dungeon.

Why can't Keegan leave his tomb? Because if he did, he'd risk being controlled by the darkness again.

Cheers, -- N

 

[howandwhy99]

Sadly, the current thinking is Fantasy means no plausibility whatsoever. Things just happen without explanation, so don't bother trying to figure it out. In my mind, that's the opposite of fantasy, not caring about the mystery at all.

Solving the crypt problem shouldnt' be too difficult. Call it a reburial. Then the justifications you add to the site become information for the players/characters to learn when they go through there. Answering some of the "who built this and why?" questions. Or offering some degree of answers anyways. There's a lot in that adventure that is background hard to access through a PC. Just include some of that. The remains of the actual crypt's honoree in the corner. Entrances to deeper portions of the map not included in the adventure. Perhaps this part of the cave is older, used for different reasons than the rest?

As for inconsistencies I noticed that the main fairway between the lower level organized enemies and the upper level ones was through a crypt filled with undead. Does this seem weird to you? The adventure just said that undead are programmed not to attack the enemies, but doesn't say how. Personally, that'd be a great way through if the PCs could learn the answer.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Sir K.'s depraved acts of depraved murder caused a pool of dark death energies to form. When he took his poison and prayed to , instead of the divine gift of forgiveness granting him eternal peace, instead he was turned into a unique type of undead -- and the pool of darkness persisted.

Sir K.'s undead body did receive some divine gifts, though. He (mostly) retained his free will.

Who built the tomb and temple? Sir Keegan. With his own cold, dead hands.

Why did he build it? Because he wanted to "offset" the local pool of shadow energy he'd created, both so he could retain his free will, and so he could reduce the dark energy in general. Unfortunately, it didn't quite work, and all he was able to do was create an oasis of light in the dungeon.

Why can't Keegan leave his tomb? Because if he did, he'd risk being controlled by the darkness again.

Cheers, -- N

YES. Thank you. I like the "with his cold, dead hands" bit particularly. I can see him chiselling away in the darkness, and I could make the tomb kind of rough and wierd. Still a little unclear on the infinite good guy skeleton deal. I'll have to think about that more. Also $DIETY lol.

Howandwhy99 - Yeah that's an interesting point. I may have to add someway to go through there without activating them, perhaps a skill challenge made easier by interrogating the goblins or something.

 

[Plane Sailing]

One option would be to eliminate the 'redeemed Sir Keegan' angle and turn him into an out and out bad guy. The tomb then becomes a tomb dedicated to Orcus, and his undead form is held there in torment by Orcus. Eliminate the bahamut angle entirely.

Alternatively, maybe this was a temple to Bahamut in the undercroft of the keep - so eliminate the sarcophagi, and re-flavour it as a temple rather than a tomb.

 

[Plane Sailing]

You might not want to hear this but you might be thinking too hard about fantasy. Accept it for what it is or play something that makes more sense.

Don't threadcrap.

If you've not got something worthwhile to add to help with the original question, then it isn't worth posting.

 

[Nifft]

Still a little unclear on the infinite good guy skeleton deal. I'll have to think about that more.

What'd the mechanical distinction between "good guy" skeletons and the regular kind?

(I've only played through it, not read it in detail.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Ruin Explorer]

What'd the mechanical distinction between "good guy" skeletons and the regular kind?

(I've only played through it, not read it in detail.)

Cheers, -- N

It's a flavour distinction, sure, but they're clearly obeying Bahamut and in extremely close proximity to a consecrated shrine to Bahamut. I need to work out a way to make them connected to Orcus, I think. Reflavouring the whole thing to Orcus as Plane Sailing suggests might be the simplest way.

Plane Sailing - The only thing I don't like about that is that Sir Keegan is pretty much the only person the PCs get to chat with in the actual keep itself, and my players are chatty types. Worth considering, though.