Forked Thread: KotShadowfell wierdness/plotholes.

[Ruin Explorer]

No, I didn't read the history at all.

If there's an explanation for what the tomb's doing there and why the skeleton's are doing Bahamut's will, what's the OP's problem?

He's extrapolating, it doesn't say ANYTHING about the Temple to Bahamut being built by the soldiers (though one presumes it was), and it's PAST eight (ten) very very magic sacrophagi that spit out infinite (literally) numbers of minion skeletons and that are not destroyed by praying to Bahamut, but rather calm down and quietly go back into the sacrophagi (this is what it says).

It is also in a secret area that specifically said to be "secret" multiple times.

My problem isn't with the temple to Bahamut existing. It's with the temple to Bahamut controlling undead-spitting magic sacrophagi, and with a supposedly LG-type knight crawling into what must be someone else's tomb (as it's a "secret" as is repeatedly stated, and I don't think a sane family man would be "secretly" carving a tomb for himself pre-death) whilst supposedly feeling bad about having killed so many people. I mean, what?

Wayne - The other issue is "Who put the infinite-skeleton-spitting sacrophagi there? Also why, and by what magic do they work?". Those are my two issues and I think I outlined them pretty clearly. Seosomon just seems to be trying to muddy the waters and threadcrap, rather than offering actual explanations that make any sense. I mean, he's arguing about the Temple being there - I never had a problem with that, though why it's secret I have no real clue.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Double post.

 

[Vendark]

The issue here is thus: The room he's in has a tomb fashioned in his likeness, so who built it?

This is easy enough to explain. We simply assume that Keegan was made lord of the keep for life. Knowing that he would die as lord of the keep, he made provisions for his eventual interment. The tomb was likely completed years before he flipped out and started killing people.

This is the natural progression of events for the nobility. You don't wait until Baron Grandpa dies, then stick him in a corner while you build a box to put him in. Instead, Baron Grandpa sets aside some of his greater-than-average wealth while he's still a relatively young man to make sure that when he goes out, he goes out in style.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

This is easy enough to explain. We simply assume that Keegan was made lord of the keep for life. Knowing that he would die as lord of the keep, he made provisions for his eventual interment. The tomb was likely completed years before he flipped out and started killing people.

This is the natural progression of events for the nobility. You don't wait until Baron Grandpa dies, then stick him in a corner while you build a box to put him in. Instead, Baron Grandpa sets aside some of his greater-than-average wealth while he's still a relatively young man to make sure that when he goes out, he goes out in style.

This doesn't match up with the story as told in the adventure, though. In the adventure, Sir Keegan takes refuge in a "secret" tomb that no-one but him knows about. It's impossible to believe that he could have had workmen going in and our building this secret tomb and no-one else noticed or knew about it (it's quite sizeable). Equally it's impossible to believe this man, portrayed as sane, decent and having a young family, could have been chiselling it whilst alive.

If you rejig the story, though, that makes more sense. It's just that it's specifically contradicted by what was written in KotS.

It also doesn't make sense because he seems not to have been the first person in charge of keep. It's been there for hundreds of years, and he flipped out, what, a hundred years ago. So why does he get a tomb and no-one else? Still favouring "carved with his cold dead hands" if we're going to contradict the storyline.

 

[Pseudopsyche]

My problem isn't with the temple to Bahamut existing. It's with the temple to Bahamut controlling undead-spitting magic sacrophagi, and with a supposedly LG-type knight crawling into what must be someone else's tomb (as it's a "secret" as is repeatedly stated, and I don't think a sane family man would be "secretly" carving a tomb for himself pre-death) whilst supposedly feeling bad about having killed so many people. I mean, what?

Page 36, which describes this section of the dungeon, states, "When clerics served in the keep, they performed daily ceremonies to keep the dead from rising. Now, nothing prevents the influence of the rift from bringing the dead back to life." The blurb for Area 7 on the same page elaborates: "Awakened by the stirring of the Shadow Rift, the warriors buried in this tomb attack any who enter." To me, the text explicitly states that the shrine to Bahamut only "controls" the undead to the extent that the original clerics controlled the undead by keeping them from rising. Presumably, using the altar to Bahamut somehow renews the magic of the ancient ceremonies, and puts the dead back to rest.

I can only find one instance where the text states that Keegan's crypt is a secret, on page 34: "Crushed with remorse, he lay within a secret tomb in the dungeons and, rather than live with his guilt, he drank a vial of poison." I suspect that the crypt is secret only insofar as its existence was not widely known. Area 1 has normal doors that lead to area 5, which the BBEG uses. There's no door or obstruction between area 5 and area 7, with the sarcophagi and the shrine to Bahamut. The map shows a normal door between area 7 and Keegan's tomb. So the tomb is not hidden, merely obscure.

It's true that the text does not state whose crypt originally occupied area 8. I imagine you can use whatever works for you. It seems consistent to say that Keegan created the crypt after being trapped there: "The remnants of my legion sealed the passage and trapped me here. I selected this as a fitting place to spend eternity."

 

[ryryguy]

It's a flavour distinction, sure, but they're clearly obeying Bahamut and in extremely close proximity to a consecrated shrine to Bahamut. I need to work out a way to make them connected to Orcus, I think. Reflavouring the whole thing to Orcus as Plane Sailing suggests might be the simplest way.

Possibly the skeletons are evil and placed there by evil folks (either the current cultists or somebody else) to guard against that consecrated shrine to Bahamut. To keep people from getting to the shrine and the good Sir Keegan beyond.

Praying at the altar doesn't destroy the skeletons because they were Bahamut's skeletons, but because Bahamut is throwing a bone your way to honor your devotion by clearing out the evil skeleton-renewing spell.

...

Another weak spot in the temple - where do the human cultists in the final room live and sleep, anyway? Do they spend every moment in that room at the end?

 

[Vendark]

This doesn't match up with the story as told in the adventure, though. In the adventure, Sir Keegan takes refuge in a "secret" tomb that no-one but him knows about.

If your players are reading that for themselves, you have bigger problems to worry about.

Seriously, as Pseudopsyche says, the idea that the crypt was secret doesn't jibe with the very straight-forward layout, and the fact that the keep's priests were conducting regular ceremonies down there. So I'd ignore that tidibt.

It also doesn't make sense because he seems not to have been the first person in charge of keep. It's been there for hundreds of years, and he flipped out, what, a hundred years ago. So why does he get a tomb and no-one else?

Maybe none of the previous lords intended to live and die there. The keep was known to be susceptible to evil influences. Perhaps most lords were happy to be rid of it after a time. Keegan, not just a soldier but a paladin, thought he had the strength to resist the Shadowfell's pull and felt he had an obligation to defend others against it, so he made the mistake of settling in for the long haul.

That's also serves as an explanation as to why, after all that time, it should be a paladin of all people who finally cracked. He stayed too long, and his pride brought him down.

 

[Snoweel]

YES. Thank you. I like the "with his cold, dead hands" bit particularly. I can see him chiselling away in the darkness, and I could make the tomb kind of rough and wierd.

Or maybe expand his backstory to include the couple of years he spent as a bricklayer before he became a knight.

 

[RabidBob]

Another weak spot in the temple - where do the human cultists in the final room live and sleep, anyway? Do they spend every moment in that room at the end?

This kind of thing always bugs me; you have a fairly confined space with a large number of living things in it which need to eat, sleep and go to the loo somewhere, yet so many dungeons you see have nothing to support the normal course of life. It's like all the inhabitents go somewhere else at night to sleep and have dinner then turn up in the morning ready to be killed by adventurers. Ok, not all dungeons are like this, but there seem to be a fair few. These things don't need to be big but they do need to be there so you don't have a sense of everything being in stasis just waiting for the adventurers to turn up.

 

[seusomon]

Seosomon just seems to be trying to muddy the waters and threadcrap, rather than offering actual explanations that make any sense. I mean, he's arguing about the Temple being there - I never had a problem with that, though why it's secret I have no real clue.

Aren't you being a bit unfair? I'm not threadcrapping. The passage that Pseudopsyche quoted seems to me to give an adequate explanation of the relationship between the Bahamut shrine and the undead. It seems you are stuck on the notion of the shrine controlling the sarcophogi in the sense of being responsible for their producing the skeletons; but the text makes it clear (to me) that the skeletons are being animated by the rift and that the temple was used to counteract that, and can still be used to that effect by the PCs if they figure it out.

Is it a plot device worthy of a well-crafted novel? No. But it's sufficient, I think. If you think it's not, you'll have to articulate what is illogical about this straight-forward reading of the text regarding the shrine.

I conceded that the carved coffin seems to be a plot hole, and suggested several ways to plug the hole if needed. I regard this as something a little odd, incompletely thought out, but not irreparably illogical.

As for the tomb being "secret", I think you are making to much out of an adjective that was probably tossed in more for atmosphere than to make any specific point about who knew about the tomb. Common sense dictates that the skeleton legion area, the shrine, and Keegan's tomb were all known to Keegan and the clerics at the time when he hid down there.