Forked Thread: Maximum lifting capacity for multiple lifters?

[Ashtagon]

Forked from: Maximum lifting capacity for multiple lifters?

If, on the other hand, the target effort is in the form of a Strength DC (such as forcing a stone door), have all participating characters roll Strength checks, with the highest result being the leader and all other checks of 10 or higher adding +2 to the leader's result.

Actually, this Aid Another mechanic is one thing that always bugged me. As written, even a character with only nominal ability (-1 total modifiers on the die roll) has a 50% chance of granting the aid another bonus with his check. Essentially, his aid can mean something even in a task which is virtually impossible.

To put it another way, why should a seven-stone weakling be able to offer any useful assistance at all to a cloud giant who is struggling to push a house over a cliff? In a more modern campaign, why should a semi-literate immigrant be able to assist a university professor in translating a text from ancient Greek to Serbo-Melanesian?

Personally, I would make it a house rule that if the person doing the aiding couldn't possibly succeed alone even if they rolled a natural 20, their aid another attempt automatically fails.

 

[Kerrick]

You have a very good point here. Just off the top of my head, I would say that the second person would have to make a separate check against the DC of the task, not DC 10. If THAT check succeeds, he grants the +2 bonus.

 

[Ashtagon]

You have a very good point here. Just off the top of my head, I would say that the second person would have to make a separate check against the DC of the task, not DC 10. If THAT check succeeds, he grants the +2 bonus.

The problem here is that, mathematically, that is actually inferior to the two characters trying individually in sequence without cooperating.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Actually, this Aid Another mechanic is one thing that always bugged me. As written, even a character with only nominal ability (-1 total modifiers on the die roll) has a 50% chance of granting the aid another bonus with his check. Essentially, his aid can mean something even in a task which is virtually impossible.

To put it another way, why should a seven-stone weakling be able to offer any useful assistance at all to a cloud giant who is struggling to push a house over a cliff? In a more modern campaign, why should a semi-literate immigrant be able to assist a university professor in translating a text from ancient Greek to Serbo-Melanesian?

Personally, I would make it a house rule that if the person doing the aiding couldn't possibly succeed alone even if they rolled a natural 20, their aid another attempt automatically fails.

Aid Another
In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once. In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

I would argue first that any skill that requires training to be able to be used can't be the object of Aid Another unless the person trying to aid has at least one rank. If they have at least one rank in said skill, then the Aid Another check is at least logical.



Back to the original discussion, I agree with you. I think simply getting a 10 on the check is too low. What about a simple rule along these lines: In order to Aid Another with a skillor ability check, you must roll the check against a quarter of the DC (round up) of the attempted task. The result of your check grants a bonus to the attmpting character equal to the number of times your check meets or esceeds the quarter DC. If this result is four or higher, you not only Aid the other person but you do the task for them.

Thus, take a character needing to succeed on a DC 28 Handle Animal check. The character's friend wants to help. If the character's friend doesn't have Handle Animal, they can't even roll because the result won't be meaningful since they aren't trained in the skill. If they do have at least one rank in Handle Animal they can attempt to aid the character. A result of 1-6 means no help. A roll of 7-13 means the Aid Another result is +1. A result of 14-20 means the Aid Another attempt grants a +2. A result of 21-27 means the Aid Another grants a +3 to the character. A roll of 28 or higher means that the character attmpting to aid the friend actually accomplishes the task on their own!

That is flexible, and it actually is a little more stringent than the current rule. Essential, you only get a +2 or better if you can beat half the DC of the original check. I've got to believe that in most cases, this will also be above 10, too.

Work for you?

 

[Ashtagon]

It is already RAW that a task which requires the use of a trained skill can't benefit from aid another unless the person aiding has the relevant training. That isn't the problem. The problem is when the person doing the aiding has the relevant training, but at such a low level that his aid would be extremely unlikely to be of any use.

I think rather than making it quarter of the base DC, make it half, with a flat +2 for success, and automatic task completion if you score the DC of the original task. Fewer fractions to fiddle with that way. Other than that, I think I like your suggestion.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

It is already RAW that a task which requires the use of a trained skill can't benefit from aid another unless the person aiding has the relevant training. That isn't the problem.

Oh, sorry. I thought that was where your problem was. As I'll say in a bit, I don't have an issue with the level of someone's training so long as they are trained.

The problem is when the person doing the aiding has the relevant training, but at such a low level that his aid would be extremely unlikely to be of any use.

Then this is where we differ. I think anyone - no matter how weakly trained - can always add something. Since the bons is only +2, I think it makes sense with the application, too. Given a DC 15 task, even 1 rank is enough to give the person a legit chance todo it themself, so they should be able to add something with their aid. This is reflected by the fact that the +2 is about 13% of a success onthe task. On the other hand, given a task with DC 30, the guy with only 1 rank can't really contribute much, but they might be able to inspire something in the other character. This is reflected by the +2 being only 6.5% of the success. It makes sense to me. The higher the rating, the less aid is rendered by those wishing to give aid.

I think rather than making it quarter of the base DC, make it half, with a flat +2 for success, and automatic task completion if you score the DC of the original task. Fewer fractions to fiddle with that way. Other than that, I think I like your suggestion.

In this case, you've only changed that it is no longer a flat 10 needed but rather a floating boundary. That's okay, but I like the fact that the Aid Another's roll can actually make the amount of help variable. It makes the roll actually matter. But, I think either could be fine.

 

[genshou]

I believe I answered the OP's question quite sufficiently in the original thread.

Have you ever spotted for someone who is bench pressing? I can barely bench press 100 lbs. (including the bar). Yet, I have spotted for people bench pressing anywhere between 300-500 lbs. with no problems helping them lift the bar when their strength gives out. In fact, I don't even have to apply my full strength.

Sometimes all it takes is a little push.

 

[Ashtagon]

I believe I answered the OP's question quite sufficiently in the original thread.

Have you ever spotted for someone who is bench pressing? I can barely bench press 100 lbs. (including the bar). Yet, I have spotted for people bench pressing anywhere between 300-500 lbs. with no problems helping them lift the bar when their strength gives out. In fact, I don't even have to apply my full strength.

Sometimes all it takes is a little push.

ok, you can press 100, he can press 500. That's a difference of 11.5 Strength points in d20 terms, approximating from the carrying/lifting table. Call it a difference f +6 in your bonuses. That is close enough that your aid would be meaningful.

Suppose you could press 100, and the other guy could press 10,000. Do you still think your help could be meaningful?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Suppose you could press 100, and the other guy could press 10,000. Do you still think your help could be meaningful?

About as meaningful as the +2 bonus becomes, sure. A Medium character with 40 (+15 Mod) STR should be able to lift 6,400 pounds over his head. Let's say for some reason that character needs to make a STR abilty check against a DC 30. They have a fair chance for success, but it would be better if they could have some help. However, if they receive some help, they have a slightly better chance at success. But an average person with STR 10 (+0 Mod) can help them out in spite of being able to only lift 100 pounds. But their +2 Aid another only represents a little less than 7% of the success. Seems reasonable to me.

Also, you seem to be coming back to straight lifting as you ultimate example. Remember that if a person is trying to lift something, you wouldn't be using a skill/ability check anyway. You'd look at their maximum carrying capacity. In this aspect, it makes even more sense. The Medium creature that can lift 6,400 pounds working together with a chaacter who can only lift 100 pounds can only lift 6,500 pounds together. And that makes sense, too.

My point is that the DMG and SRD is clear to point out that just like you don't make a height check to see who is taller, you don'tmake a STR check to see who is stronger. STR checks are for breaking or bending things. There are more ways to help in that regard than sheer strength. Having a second set of hands when tryingto bend something could change the fulcrum point. A second pair of handscould put strain on an item making it break more easilywhen forceis applied.

Again, I think it makes sense.

 

[Ashtagon]

I only went back to lifting because that was the specific example the previous guy used. But the points stands for any task. For any arbitrarily-difficult task, there must logically be a point where the limited knowledge that an apprentice has to offer is of no use in assisting a grand master.