Forked Thread: Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[mmadsen]

MMadsen - I believe you have a strange definition of abstract.

I suggest you look up abstraction, Hussar; I don't have my own strange definition of it. To abstract is to pull away all the elements that are shared across multiple instances of a concept, leaving behind the details that differ. (The term is used all the time in computer programming, by the way.)

Abstractions are divorced from realism. Full stop.

No, abstractions are not divorced from reality; they simply lack detail.

A single die roll that decides a combat is not realistic in the slightest - it's entirely abstract.

No, it's both realistic and abstract -- assuming the math is in fact based on reality. A typical war game, for instance, would be much, much more abstract than D&D, but much, much more realistic.

A 1 minute round where you only get one attack is an abstraction.

Sure.

Deciding that your maneuver will finally have a chance of success RIGHT NOW is an abstraction.

No, not really.

 

[Intense_Interest]

You're actually both right, except one of you is using it as an adjective, and one of you is using it as a noun. Because the word in question is not concrete, it is abstract.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Same thing goes for the "I goofed" model. I don't know why you don't like it, though.

Because its not an interpretation supported by the mechanics. Its a maneuver you've learned. You've done it before. Its not the goofed up version of the superior per encounter maneuver.

If it were, it should be a part of the "Missed" line of the superior power and/or you should still be able to use the lesser power.

It doesn't need justification, because the mechanic is a good one. You want a rationalisation for a good mechanic.

If it were a good mechanic, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Of course. Surely the idea of someone catching their breath between fights is not so hard to grasp.

No, no problem there...

Except that for daily maneuvers, even the epic level PC will never "catch his breath" sufficiently for more than one use per day, while more powerful maneuvers are per encounter.

Look at the Paragon and Epic per encounter exploits- 3[W]+ and 4[W]+ maneuvers are not uncommon. One could even call them the norm at some point.

Yet he can't "catch his breath" to perform a simple 3[W] maneuver that he's known for 15+ levels?

To quote Judge Judy, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining."

Because he can't.

Sure he can. If he hits, he gets 3[W].

4E does not simulate 3E's version of reality. It simulates action movies, where finishing moves are used to, you know, finish a fight.

You've said it before, and its no more true than the first time you stated it.

Even in action movies, "finishing moves" are often usable more than once a day when the foes are inferior in quality to the protagonist (or in some cases, a powerful antagonist).

It is only when the participants in the fight are of nearly the same ability that "finishing moves" only get used successfully once in a fight.

There is plenty of mechanical balance. In fact, your issue is that you consider there to be too much of it.

First, my issue is that the method of achieving balance makes no sense.

Second, I think that it is improper balance when both an epic PC and a noob have the same #uses/day for a particular maneuver.

Then think harder about fantasy.

That is precisely as cute as an Otyugh.

If you were watching an action movie would you think it "unrealistic" if the hero used exactly the same spinning sweep move three times on the same opponents and got the same result each time?

See Chuck Norris.

Besides, assuming what you just described is a daily power, is ossible in 4Ed if the encounters are on different days.

But furthermore, check out the body of work of not just Mr. Norris, but of other top-flight martial artists who transitioned into film, like Bruce Lee or Don "The Dragon" Wilson. Frequently, they will use and reuse martial maneuvers, especially against lesser foes. It isn't until they meet a nominal "equal" that formerly viable tactics get abandoned.

The "daily" and the "encounter" limits are there to keep those moves special,

A per encounter martial maneuver is both sensible and preserves the "specialness" of choosing combat maneuvers.

A "daily" power that never improves with the PC defies logic and becomes frustrating at high play levels.

Imagine if the 3.X dailies really were dailies! A 20th level Barbarian who could only Rage once? A 20th level Monk who could only Stun once? A 20th level Paladin who could only Smite once?

Instead, each 3.X PC gains both additional uses and increasing value out of his so-called dailies.

Meanwhile, the Epic level Fighter still has Brute Strike but 1/day.

The other way to rationalize dailies that I have seen put forward is that only rarely in the ebb and flow of combat does your character get the opportunity to pull off one of these special moves - while in reality the PCs can decide when these moments occur.

We've covered this- 1) rare≠daily, and 2) success of a maneuver should depend upon the relative skill of the combatants and the chaos of battle.

If you are not prepared to make the steps required to understand certain meta-game situations (Martial Is Not Mundane, A Once Per Day action is only possible in a Once Per Day situation), all that means is that you have not taken those steps.

If martial is not mundane, then they should spell it out, and 1/day martial abilities should clearly be described in non-mundane terms. Its not just the Fighter, after all- consider the Warlord's Pin the Foe:

"No matter where your foe turns, one of your allies is waiting for him."

Not only is that pure mundane language, but it describes actions that should depend upon actual PC actions, not some power with a lame "daily" mechanic. I mean- that's SOP for Roman Legionnaires.

 

[hong]

Because its not an interpretation supported by the mechanics. Its a maneuver you've learned. You've done it before. Its not the goofed up version of the superior per encounter maneuver.

If it were, it should be a part of the "Missed" line of the superior power and/or you should still be able to use the lesser power.

No, that is one way to represent missing with a powerful attack.

Except that for daily maneuvers, even the epic level PC will never "catch his breath" sufficiently for more than one use per day, while more powerful maneuvers are per encounter.

So it's really hard to catch your breath after a daily power. If you could handle hit points, you can handle this.

Look at the Paragon and Epic per encounter exploits- 3[W]+ and 4[W]+ maneuvers are not uncommon. One could even call them the norm at some point.

Yet he can't "catch his breath" to perform a simple 3[W] maneuver that he's known for 15+ levels?

It's a ki thing.

To quote Judge Judy, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining."

No, you are the one who is peeing on his own leg. I am the one saying you can stop peeing on your own leg by simply not thinking too hard about fantasy.

You've said it before, and its no more true than the first time you stated it.

Even in action movies, "finishing moves" are often usable more than once a day when the foes are inferior in quality to the protagonist (or in some cases, a powerful antagonist).

Which is where the bit about freestyle narrating the defeating of mooks comes in.

It is only when the participants in the fight are of nearly the same ability that "finishing moves" only get used successfully once in a fight.

Exactly. There is a gradation of abilities that matches the gradation of opponents. See, you can grasp action movie logic if you think about it.

First, my issue is that the method of achieving balance makes no sense.

So you keep saying.

Second, I think that it is improper balance when both an epic PC and a noob have the same #uses/day for a particular maneuver.

Nonsense. The epic PC can do a lot more things in a given fight, and in a given day, than the noob. It is of no great importance to the in-game narrative that any particular metagame maneuver can only be used so many times.

Instead, each 3.X PC gains both additional uses and increasing value out of his so-called dailies.

As do 4E PCs.

 

[Intense_Interest]

If martial is not mundane, then they should spell it out,

Why? If we're not going to explain where the Dragon's fire comes from, why do we need to explain where the Healing Surge powers come from? The fluff is there to explain what happens, not how it occurs.

and 1/day martial abilities should clearly be described in non-mundane terms. Its not just the Fighter, after all- consider the Warlord's Pin the Foe: "No matter where your foe turns, one of your allies is waiting for him."

First- how mundane is using an ability that is guaranteed to work, every time? They're described in Martial terms in the same reason that Arcane is described in Arcane terms and Divine is described in Divine terms: That is how the power changes the game.

Second, the power is there because, for the character, that is what the Power does: when the power comes into effect, that is what happens. This is not describing the way the weapon does 3 times its basic damage or the power requires adjacent enemies.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No, that is one way to represent missing with a powerful attack.

No. There is already a mechanic in 4Ed for representing missing with a powerful attack, its the "Missed" line.

So it's really hard to catch your breath after a daily power. If you could handle hit points, you can handle this.

Given the relative power of 1st level dailies vs higher level per encounters, HP make infinitely more sense.

It's a ki thing.

Ki is a single fountain from which all abilities flow. You don't just burn out one section of it.

No, you are the one who is peeing on his own leg. I am the one saying you can stop peeing on your own leg by simply not thinking too hard about fantasy.

Sorry, hong, I can tell the diff.

Which is where the bit about freestyle narrating the defeating of mooks comes in.

If you're talking about defeating 4Ed Minions, perhaps, but not all lower level opponents are 4Ed minions. Minion ≠ mook from a mechanics standpoint.

Exactly. There is a gradation of abilities that matches the gradation of opponents. See, you can grasp action movie logic if you think about it

.

There is no gradation- the daily remains daily, end of story. It doesn't scale, there is no regard for relative skill.

So you keep saying.

Yes, I do.

The epic PC can do a lot more things in a given fight, and in a given day, than the noob.

There is no argument there- that is as it should be.

It is of no great importance to the in-game narrative that any particular metagame maneuver can only be used so many times.

To you, obviously. To me, obviously not.- to me and others, it is quite disruptive.

Instead, each 3.X PC gains both additional uses and increasing value out of his so-called dailies.

As do 4E PCs.

Nope- they still get only a single use. They're daily powers, remember?

The fluff is there to explain what happens, not how it occurs

It serves both purposes, or at least, it should if properly done.

First- how mundane is using an ability that is guaranteed to work, every time?

Not all martial daily powers work every time. Reliable ones can be attempted many times and work only once. Non reliable ones may or may not work, depending upon description.

Some are either poorly written or are non-mundane (like Blinding Barrage) but it isn't clear as to which it is- multiple strikes with daggers makes sense, but with crossbows or slings? (That doesn't resemble any movie I've seen, BTW.)

Second, the power is there because, for the character, that is what the Power does: when the power comes into effect, that is what happens. This is not describing the way the weapon does 3 times its basic damage or the power requires adjacent enemies.

Some of us like a bit more linkage between what the power does and what it says it is than 4Ed provides. The aforementioned Brute Strike does not shatter armor and bone- its just a hard hit; Mountain Breaking Blow doesn't actually affect AoOs.

(In fairness, some martial maneuvers are well linked to their power description, but some are abysmally off.)

 

[hong]

No. There is already a mechanic in 4Ed for representing missing with a powerful attack, its the "Missed" line.

Yes, there is one mechanic in 4E for representing missing with a powerful attack. You are free to come up with narratives that do not involve the mechanics.

Given the relative power of 1st level dailies vs higher level per encounters, HP make infinitely more sense.

This is because you have been playing D&D for so long you have become inured to hit points.

Ki is a single fountain from which all abilities flow. You don't just burn out one section of it.

Exactly. You can still use all your other powers after using that one power.

Sorry, hong, I can tell the diff.

Well, as long as you're having fun. But you do seem not to be having fun.

If you're talking about defeating 4Ed Minions, perhaps, but not all lower level opponents are 4Ed minions. Minion ≠ mook from a mechanics standpoint.

Minion == mook from a mechanics standpoint.

There is no gradation- the daily remains daily, end of story. It doesn't scale, there is no regard for relative skill.

There is plenty of gradation because you use the daily on something that deserves a daily. By contrast you can whack minions all day long in any manner you please, as long as it ends with them on the floor.

Yes, I do.

So you keep saying.

There is no argument there- that is as it should be.

That is as it is.

To you, obviously. To me, obviously not.- to me and others, it is quite disruptive.

The difference is that I am having fun. Therefore, my situation is clearly better. Furthermore, there is a simple way to transport yourself into my situation, which I have already mentioned.

Nope- they still get only a single use. They're daily powers, remember?

Exactly. Daily powers, plural.

Some of us like a bit more linkage between what the power does and what it says it is than 4Ed provides. The aforementioned Brute Strike does not shatter armor and bone- its just a hard hit; Mountain Breaking Blow doesn't actually affect AoOs.

Next you'll be asking why Great Fortitude doesn't give you more hit points.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If martial is not mundane, then they should spell it out, and 1/day martial abilities should clearly be described in non-mundane terms.

Martial powers are simply not mundane. But you can't really see it if you look at the character in the game-world, since he's not creating fire or radiant energy or force fields. Think of an action movie using wire-work. You don't see the wires, and what you see looks like someone doing incredible jumps and moves, but since the wires are invisible (in a movie - in the game world, they don't exist at all), you can't describe anything unusual except the effect.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yes, there is one mechanic in 4E for representing missing with a powerful attack. You are free to come up with narratives that do not involve the mechanics.

We're discussing the rules as they are, not what we can HR them into.

This is because you have been playing D&D for so long you have become inured to hit points.

HP? This isn't about HP. (Though I also dislike 4Ed Healing surges, but that's a different thread, I'm sure.)

I've been playing D&D since 1977. Ditto Traveller. I've played 100 or so different systems and playtested a few. Some had HP, some didn't.

An illogical mechanic is illogical regardless of the system around it.

Exactly. You can still use all your other powers after using that one power.

Yes, the greater or lesser at wills or per encounters, but not dailies.

Were 4Ed really a "Ki" thing, more powerful abilities would be more draining, and thus, would be performed less frequently. In addition, as the person grew in control and amount of Ki, all of his abilities would increase in power.

Instead, 4Ed has lesser powers that remain stuck at 1/use/day with a static benefit, while other, "more draining" abilities may be performed multiply...but retain an essentially static benefit.

Well, as long as you're having fun. But you do seem not to be having fun.

Not that you know my actual mental state, but "It is better to be an unhappy Socrates..."

Minion == mook from a mechanics standpoint.

Not really.

"Minion" has a specific definition in 4Ed. Essentially, they're tissue paper opponents- one blow and they're done.

A "mook," as I've been using the word (admittedly, sometimes interchangeably with "minion") is a foe of significantly lesser level than the PC. That could be anything from an actual 4Ed Minion to someone just the tier below the PC.

The difference is that I am having fun. Therefore, my situation is clearly better. Furthermore, there is a simple way to transport yourself into my situation, which I have already mentioned.

I'm sticking with Socrates.

My dislike of certain 4Ed mechanics isn't going to be altered by your cutesy assertions to "think more" or "think less" depending upon your whim. Why you think acting obtuse is enjoyable is your own concern, not mine.

I call things like I see them: There are things I do like about the game, but ultimately, I see 4Ed as being a flawed product that does not meet my purposes or standards. One day I may play it- I'm not going to miss out on role-play just because I hate the system- but it will never be my game of choice on either side of the screen.

Too much poop, not enough pony.

Daily powers, plural.

Yes, a higher level PC has more daily powers than a lower level one. Big whoop.

Each daily power is singular in use- illogical in the context of a PC with more powerful per-encounter abilities.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Martial powers are simply not mundane. <snip> Think of an action movie using wire-work. You don't see the wires, and what you see looks like someone doing incredible jumps and moves, but since the wires are invisible (in a movie - in the game world, they don't exist at all), you can't describe anything unusual except the effect.

That would be fine if the daily martial moves were all so unusual in effect that they demanded being hard capped at 1 use/day. But they clearly don't.

If a 3[W] maneuver is so overwhelming that even a 30th level PC can only do it once per day, then there is no reason why a maneuver granting 3[W] + _________ or 4[W] + __________ should be per encounter for anyone, regardless of level.