Forked Thread: Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That would be fine if the daily martial moves were all so unusual in effect that they demanded being hard capped at 1 use/day. But they clearly don't.

If a 3[W] maneuver is so overwhelming that even a 30th level PC can only do it once per day, then there is no reason why a maneuver granting 3[W] + _________ or 4[W] + __________ should be per encounter for anyone, regardless of level.

Why? Maybe the 3[W] low level maneuver is actually less efficient then the 4[W] encounter power. But our martial hero just didn't know any better then, and he learned a more efficient technique. But he can still do the old trick if necessary (and sometimes it might be, if he has exhausted all other options).

There's also the aspect of retraining. At least at 15th level*, a Fighter will already have retrained his 1st level Brute Strike. And that's around the time 3[W] encounter powers kick in, IIRC.


*) I am using 15th level because I am going to play a 15th level Warlord and I still remember that I didn't have any 1st level encounter or dailies any more at that level. I haven't memorized the powers/level table yet.

 

[Oblique]

I wouldn't call narrative control an abstraction above the game world.

And I would consider narrative control to be one of the intents of abstract game rules, rather than a definition of the nature of those rules. For one thing, such a statement makes no sense: narrative control is a quality, not a description.

"Just" stating your own preferences?

Yes, because saying that you don't share the designer's goals is not synonymous with saying that the game is badly designed. The second is a criticism of the game; the first is just a statement on the kinds of games you personally prefer.

 

[Intense_Interest]

That would be fine if the daily martial moves were all so unusual in effect that they demanded being hard capped at 1 use/day. But they clearly don't.

If a 3[W] maneuver is so overwhelming that even a 30th level PC can only do it once per day, then there is no reason why a maneuver granting 3[W] + _________ or 4[W] + __________ should be per encounter for anyone, regardless of level.

Glad to see you give up the ghost of the Martial Powers Must Be Mundane bandwagon, for one. Because I'm pretty sure an always-works ability that has no constraints for relative skill qualifies as unusual; or does your logic only work when you are moving the goalposts?

It isn't a 3[W] and a blank power, or the effect-based fluff would include "and you swing your sword stronger". It's a "this creates an exceptional advantage" power, with a weapon-damage rider. HPs aren't even real damage, champ! Therefore the 4[W] damage can entirely be the fact that your opponent is so gobsmacked by the application of this power that his Fighting Spirit is drained.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Why? Maybe the 3[W] low level maneuver is actually less efficient then the 4[W] encounter power. But our martial hero just didn't know any better then, and he learned a more efficient technique. But he can still do the old trick if necessary (and sometimes it might be, if he has exhausted all other options).

And he can't improve his technique in the 14 levels he gets before retraining becomes an option? There is nobody in the whole world who has mastered this technique to the point that they can do it more than once per day?

I'm still not buying it.

There's also the aspect of retraining. At least at 15th level*, a Fighter will already have retrained his 1st level Brute Strike. And that's around the time 3[W] encounter powers kick in, IIRC.

Actually, its 13th.

And there's still his 9th level 3[W] + _________ daily exploit to consider.

The curve of the PCs progression is dotted with these inconsistencies.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

And he can't improve his technique in the 14 levels he gets before retraining becomes an option? There is nobody in the whole world who has mastered this technique to the point that they can do it more than once per day?

No. The technique is inherently flawed. He would need an entirely different approach to make it work more often or more effective. Which is represented by him learning new powers and eventually retraining the weaker one.

And in a way, he is improving his techniques every time he increases his ability scores and his attack bonus. Foes that he had trouble hitting with his technique become easier to hit, and he can go up against foes that are considerably tougher.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Glad to see you give up the ghost of the Martial Powers Must Be Mundane bandwagon, for one.

I was never on it. I am of the opinion that something that is described in entirely mundane terms is mundane, and for something to be beyond that, there should be some indicator of its supernatural nature in the fluff...which should also match the actual mechanics of the power. Several martial dailies fail this.

Because I'm pretty sure an always-works ability that has no constraints for relative skill qualifies as unusual; or does your logic only work when you are moving the goalposts?

No goalpost moving here.

Again, not all martial daily powers work every time. Reliable ones can be attempted many times and work only once. Non reliable ones may or may not work, depending upon description.

It isn't a 3[W] and a blank power, or the effect-based fluff would include "and you swing your sword stronger".

Brute Strike's fluff oversells its mechanic. There is no damage to armor, just to the PC.

HPs aren't even real damage, champ!

My, what a unique observation.

Therefore the 4[W] damage can entirely be the fact that your opponent is so gobsmacked by the application of this power that his Fighting Spirit is drained.

That would be fine if it matched the exploit's effect, but all too often, they don't.

 

[FireLance]

That would be fine if the daily martial moves were all so unusual in effect that they demanded being hard capped at 1 use/day. But they clearly don't.

If a 3[W] maneuver is so overwhelming that even a 30th level PC can only do it once per day, then there is no reason why a maneuver granting 3[W] + _________ or 4[W] + __________ should be per encounter for anyone, regardless of level.

Actually there is a reason: stupidity. Given that a fighter has the option to re-train his daily abilities as he goes up in level, only a very stupid fighter would still be using his level 1 daily at 30th level.

At 30th level, the "weakest" daily that a fighter ought to have should be 19th level (assuming he has been carefully trading them up). The 19th level dailies can do the following:

1. Deal 3[W] damage to every adjacent target, and 1[W] damage to anyone who moves adjacent to the fighter or starts his turn adjacent to the fighter for 1 round.

2. Deal 5[W] damage to a single target, and push it one square.

3. Deal 4[W] damage to a single target, and the fighter can make a basic melee attack against it if it shifts or attacks his allies as a free action (so that it stacks with the similar attack granted by his combat challenge).

A fighter who insists on retaining the 3[W] attack he had at 1st level as one of his dailies at 30th level is thus deliberately (and quite stupidly) handicapping himself. A 3[W] effect is unusual enough to be capped at 1/day - for a low-level character. Once he gets to higher level, he should improve his dailies so that they are unusual enough to be capped at 1/day for a character of his level - 5[W] or even 7[W] damage (for a 29th-level daily), for example.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No. The technique is inherently flawed. He would need an entirely different approach to make it work more often or more effective. Which is represented by him learning new powers and eventually retraining the weaker one.

Of all the justifications presented in this thread, this is the most convincing one in favor of 1/day exploits I've seen.

I'm still not buying it, but I still think its the best attempt to date.

The reason I'm not sold is that it still doesn't make sense when you put the explanation in the full context of daily powers' fluff & results.

5th level daily Exploit
Dizzying Blow
You crack your foe upside the head.
3[W] + _____________

Its simple. Its mundane. It should be improvable, and it should be available to a skilled foe more than once per day, especially against a lesser opponent.

As I mentioned before, Bruce Lee did 8 shots to the head of a top-ranked competitive martial artist- Lee pulled the blows to avoid harming his opponent, but none were blocked.

That is a RW mundane situation that would be perfectly modeled by Dizzying Blow, but for the fact that Lee was clearly not limited to one success.

(Or even per encounter, for that matter.)

And in a way, he is improving his techniques every time he increases his ability scores and his attack bonus.

That's true only in the tritest sense. EVERY maneuver is improving in exactly the same way, act exactly the same rate.

 

[hong]

We're discussing the rules as they are, not what we can HR them into.

No, coming up with interesting narratives that do not involve the RAW at all does not count as "that's not RAW but would make a nice house rule".

HP? This isn't about HP. (Though I also dislike 4Ed Healing surges, but that's a different thread, I'm sure.)

I've been playing D&D since 1977.

Exactly. You have been playing D&D for so long that you have become inured to hit points. Now you just need to play 4E long enough that the same will happen with daily powers.

An illogical mechanic is illogical regardless of the system around it.

A handwave is a handwave regardless of the system around it.

Yes, the greater or lesser at wills or per encounters, but not dailies.

Yes, dailies.

Were 4Ed really a "Ki" thing, more powerful abilities would be more draining, and thus, would be performed less frequently. In addition, as the person grew in control and amount of Ki, all of his abilities would increase in power.

Insert arguments against spell point systems here.

Instead, 4Ed has lesser powers that remain stuck at 1/use/day with a static benefit, while other, "more draining" abilities may be performed multiply...but retain an essentially static benefit.

It's a ki thing in that an unexplained metaphysical quantity is involved in why some ppl can do amazing acts that other ppl can't. That you choose to extend this to other issues of no particular import is not very relevant.

Not that you know my actual mental state, but "It is better to be an unhappy Socrates..."

So, are you having fun?

Not really.

"Minion" has a specific definition in 4Ed. Essentially, they're tissue paper opponents- one blow and they're done.

A "mook," as I've been using the word (admittedly, sometimes interchangeably with "minion") is a foe of significantly lesser level than the PC. That could be anything from an actual 4Ed Minion to someone just the tier below the PC.

"Mook" is not a word that has a specific definition in the rules, and so you can define it however you wish. I choose to define it in a way that is productive, and helps facilitate a reasonable narrative framework in which to embed the rules structure of 4E. How about you?

I'm sticking with Socrates.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

My dislike of certain 4Ed mechanics isn't going to be altered by your cutesy assertions to "think more" or "think less" depending upon your whim. Why you think acting obtuse is enjoyable is your own concern, not mine.

Well, as long as you're having fun.

I call things like I see them: There are things I do like about the game, but ultimately, I see 4Ed as being a flawed product that does not meet my purposes or standards. One day I may play it- I'm not going to miss out on role-play just because I hate the system- but it will never be my game of choice on either side of the screen.

So you keep saying.

Yes, a higher level PC has more daily powers than a lower level one. Big whoop.

Exactly. A PC is the sum total of their powers (well, for the purpose of this discussion anyway).

Each daily power is singular in use- illogical in the context of a PC with more powerful per-encounter abilities.

Quite logical in the context of real-world constraints on how to handle PCs with laundry lists of powers.

 

[hong]

Its mundane. It should be improvable,

Sometimes a punch to the face is just a punch to the face, even if the guy doing the punching is 20th level.