Forked Thread: Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

No, hong, that isn't what I'm talking about at all.

I know minions in 4Ed are as durable as tissue paper, but I'm talking about ACTUAL USE of a daily power against an obviously lesser foe.
"Actual use of a daily power" is not particularly meaningful in in-game terms, because the mapping from metagame rules to in-game outcomes is not one-to-one.

What you want is how an in-game outcome can be obtained using metagame rules, and there are indeed many ways to do that.
 

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"Actual use of a daily power" is not particularly meaningful in in-game terms,

Its perfectly clear and meaningful- in this case, electing to use a non-reliable daily exploit.

What you want is how an in-game outcome can be obtained using metagame rules, and there are indeed many ways to do that.

No, what I want is logical connections between particular, defined game mechanics and descriptions that map to their results. In this instance, I want to be able to read a class ability- again, here, the daily exploits- and agree that this is something that should always be limited to a single daily use.

See above.

Non-reliable daily exploits fail this criterion.
 

Its perfectly clear and meaningful- in this case, electing to use a non-reliable daily exploit.



No, what I want is logical connections between particular, defined game mechanics and descriptions that map to their results. In this instance, I want to be able to read a class ability- again, here, the daily exploits- and agree that this is something that should always be limited to a single daily use.

See above.

Non-reliable daily exploits fail this criterion.

The mapping works this way: If you use a power (at-will, encounter or daily), what happens in the game world matches the power description. But if you do not use a particular power, or a power that has an ambiguous description, you can describe what happens in-game however you want (though most will probably try to stay "reasonable", and not describe a simple basic attack as you jumping 20 feet in the air and crushing the enemies bodies into the ground, where he then stands up staggering... and takes 3 points of damage. :) )

If you use the "Norris Roundhouse Kick-Power", you are making a round-house kick attack in the game world. If you just use an unarmed attack, you might still make a roundhouse kick in the game world, but mechanically, it's not as effective as the "real" power.
 

The mapping works this way <snip>

That's all well and good if your DM plays that way.

If your DM is the RAW sort (and there are many), and you (running your 8th lvl Fighter) claim, "I want to use Villain's Menace against this 2nd level Wizard we're facing," then later ask to do the same against a similarly helpless opponent later that "game day", you are out of luck.

DM handwavium is wonderful, but its not in infinite supply. Thus, we discuss the rules.

And the way I see it, by description, the dailies don't model anything that ought to be limited to one use per day.
 
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Its skill + the Force. It was difficult, yes, but it was skill.

And I bet as an experienced Jedi, he could make that shot 9 times out of 10 tries a day.
Touche. But the main point of that example was: just because it doesn't look supernatural, it doesn't mean that something supernatural isn't going on.
The issue is whether there is any logic to why my use of Villain's Menace against Relatively Unskilled Mook #1 means I should be unable to use Villain's Menace against Sub-Boss #1 three rooms and 2 combats away.

And further, meaning that I'm still barred from using Villain's Menace 2 (character time) hours later, against Unskilled Mook #7.

The ONLY logic presented is game balance, and that's simply insufficient. There are other ways for the Fighter's exploits to be balanced without being disruptive of the immersive experience.
There's also the tiredness or overstraining argument. Villian's menace is not simply a matter of using superior skill. It's a matter of pushing yourself beyond normal physical limits. Going back again to the point I just made, just because it doesn't look supernatural, it doesn't mean that something supernatural isn't going on. The fighter is somehow hitting harder and more accurately than he could under normal circumstances.

Now, if your argument is that the fighter's abilities could be balanced in other ways apart from imposing a hard limit of once per day, I'd agree with you. However, if your argument is that there is no explanation for a once per day limit apart from game balance, then I disagree and have presented an alternative explanation.

Is it potentially repetitive? Sure- so is physical combat. Watching MMA, you're going to expect someone trying to initiate a grapple. And if you can't grapple at least a little bit, you can't win- ask Kimbo Slice. Besides, repetition is logical- if my foe can't stop me from smacking him in the face with my mace, why should I stop?

But instead of allowing physical combat to be repetitive when the situation says it very well should be, 4Ed swings the pendulum completely the other way- You can't be repetitve because some things can only be done once per day.

Ever.

You've lost your choice about how to logically run your PC in combat because of a design decision.
Actually, you can't be repetitive about some things (encounter and daily abilities), but you can be as repetitive with your at-will abilities as you want. If you accept the premise that there are certain abilities that tire you out in some way and that you can't re-use again until you have had a short or extended rest, then there is nothing illogical about the way that the PCs are run in combat. Now, you may disagree that certain types of martial attacks should be encounter or daily abilities, but that is not the same as saying that encounter or daily abilities don't make sense or are illogical.
 

That's all well and good if your DM plays that way.

If your DM is the RAW sort (and there are many), and you (running your 8th lvl Fighter) claim, "I want to use Villain's Menace against this 2nd level Wizard we're facing," then later ask to do the same against a similarly helpless opponent later that "game day", you are out of luck.

DM handwavium is wonderful, but its not in infinite supply. Thus, we discuss the rules.

And the way I see it, by description, the dailies don't model anything that ought to be limited to one use per day.
Where's the problem? Are we no longer allowed to narrate mechanically inconsequently aspects as we like? Isn't this a common staple that people describe their special abilities and spells in ways fitting to their character? (like turning magic missiles into hands slapping the target for a "Bigby"-like character or into flying skulls for a Necromancer?)
 


Touche. But the main point of that example was: just because it doesn't look supernatural, it doesn't mean that something supernatural isn't going on.

But even if there is something supernatural going on- which I'm not conceding for the exploits, BTW- you should expect that as a character's mastery of the "supernatural" increases, things that were once a terrible strain become almost casually easy.

The young Skywalker needed to concentrate on the Force to help him hit a target of a size he routinely hit in casual target practice because he was in a combat situation.

Judging by the abilities of other Jedi in the series, an experienced Jedi could have made that shot with enough ease that he wouldn't be flying down the Death Star's channel with his eyes closed trying to gain his focus.

And could do so repeatedly.
There's also the tiredness or overstraining argument.

Even buying into that argument, Fighters gain a lot of these daily powers as they advance, most described as hitting someone extra hard or skillfuly. Yet each one exhausts the PC in a unique way? That seems a bit of a stretch.

Wouldn't it make more sense to say that the Fighter has a pool of rarely usable abilities that he can use, as a group, X times per day? Lets assume a PC with 2 4Ed martial "dailies," meaning he can use each one once. In the alternative just proposed, he could do just that, or he could use one 2 times, and the other not at all. When he gets up to 3 dalies, he could use one 3 times and the others not at all, one 2 times and another once, or each 1 time per day.
Now, if your argument is that the fighter's abilities could be balanced in other ways apart from imposing a hard limit of once per day, I'd agree with you.

That's part of it.
However, if your argument is that there is no explanation for a once per day limit apart from game balance, then I disagree and have presented an alternative explanation.

I think your alternative is a bit thin, honestly. Given the hooplah about discrete power sources etc., I'm a bit loathe to implying the supernatural when none is self-evident.

Actually, you can't be repetitive about some things (encounter and daily abilities), but you can be as repetitive with your at-will abilities as you want.

I have no problem with the at wills and only slight issues with per encounters. I just don't buy into the logic of the martial dailies.

If you accept the premise that there are certain abilities that tire you out in some way and that you can't re-use again until you have had a short or extended rest,

Extended rest is one thing, a full day's rest is quite another, given the exploit descriptions.

Now, you may disagree that certain types of martial attacks should be encounter or daily abilities, but that is not the same as saying that encounter or daily abilities don't make sense or are illogical.

and
Not to belabour the point, but do you find this to be a problem with specific martial dailies, or with the concept of martial dailies in the first place?

Again, I have little complaint about per encounter abilities.

I have no problem with purely magical daily abilities.

I have a serious problem with the logic behind all non-magical daily abilities. The reliable ones aren't as bad, but I still don't think they make any sense being limited as they are.

Where's the problem? Are we no longer allowed to narrate mechanically inconsequently aspects as we like? Isn't this a common staple that people describe their special abilities and spells in ways fitting to their character? (like turning magic missiles into hands slapping the target for a "Bigby"-like character or into flying skulls for a Necromancer?)

Well, looking at the "Bigby" example first, in 3.X, that was handled with a feat, Spell Thematics, which gave an adjustment to Spellcraft checks because of the alteration. A lot of people- myself included- allowed people to exchange having to take the feat so they could have the visual & auditory effects they wanted, but without the Spellcraft check alteration.

OTOH, while use of a daily against a true 4Ed minion would indeed be inconsequential, use of a daily against an inferior but still competent foe generally would not be.

Now, a DM could use a dose of handwavium and then subsequently let you use that same daily against one inferior (non-minion) foe after another, or only count uses of dailies against "real" opponents (say, those less than half your PC level)- but that isn't how the rules are structured.

If they were, I'd have less of a problem.

After all, that isn't unlike the mechanics for the 3.X Shadowcaster (ToM). At low levels, certain powers have limited uses. As the PC advances as a Shadowcaster, those limitations lessen, until at high levels, many of the less powerful abilities are essentially usable at will.

Its also not unlike the 3.X "dailies" that some classes have- as the PC advances, they gain additional uses of their "dailies."
 

Well, looking at the "Bigby" example first, in 3.X, that was handled with a feat, Spell Thematics, which gave an adjustment to Spellcraft checks because of the alteration. A lot of people- myself included- allowed people to exchange having to take the feat so they could have the visual & auditory effects they wanted, but without the Spellcraft check alteration.

OTOH, while use of a daily against a true 4Ed minion would indeed be inconsequential, use of a daily against an inferior but still competent foe generally would not be.

Now, a DM could use a dose of handwavium and then subsequently let you use that same daily against one inferior (non-minion) foe after another, or only count uses of dailies against "real" opponents (say, those less than half your PC level)- but that isn't how the rules are structured.
I am not talking about letting you use the daily power again. I am only talking about letting you re-use the "flavor"/narration of the power again.

You round-house kick your enemy every round, but only one of the round house kick uses the actual power and deals 3[W] damage and drops the target prone in mechanical terms. In all other cases, you dealt regular damage and might even have visually described the enemy is falling to the ground but immediately getting up, not long enough on the ground to be represented by the mechanical term "prone."
 

You do realize that the exact same hand wave could be used to explain why Descent is just as good an RPG as 4e

Yep, I once role-played my ass off in Monopoly, it did drive everyone else a little nuts, though.



P.S. I do know that this was another one your thinly veiled, passive aggressive desires for an argument that isn't there – creepy – no thanks.





 

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