Forked Thread: spot checks, range?

[aboyd]

Well, I found something new that I want to add to the mix to try to see how it fits. In Complete Warrior, there is this text:

Giant eagles have a Spot modifier of +15, so they make excellent scouts, circling the battlefield at great altitude to watch troop movements. A giant eagle can fly higher than 300 feet and still have a better than even chance of spotting a Huge creature (or 10 Medium creatures moving as a unit). Unless the creatures on the ground are specifically scanning the sky for the giant eagle, it takes a DC 26 Spot check to notice the eagle at that height.

So... let's see if I can apply the rules in such a way as to make that text work. According to table 4-4, you can spot something in plain sight with a DC of 0. Ignore for the moment the text that says the DC is for spotting a large creature. Instead, use the size modifiers listed under the Hide skill. Thus, spotting a medium creature in plain sight is a DC 0, spotting a tiny creature in plain sight is a DC 8, and spotting a huge creature in plain sight is a DC -8 (or, pretty much you can't miss it).

Now, according to the Spot skill, spotting at 300 feet would carry a 30 point penalty to Spot. So spotting something huge from 300' away is a -8 + 30 = 22. Right? With the eagle's +15 to Spot, that means the eagle will spot a huge creature on the ground from 300' away with a roll of 7 or better. That is in fact better than 50-50 odds.

Next, they say it takes a DC 26 to Spot the eagle. How? According to what we just did, spotting a plainly visible creature has a DC of 0. If they include the -30 penalty for distance, the DC is now 30. However, the eagle is large, which confers a 4 point bonus to the Spot, for a total DC of 26. Hey! That's what they said. Good. And they mention that the enemy must be scanning the skies to get that DC. Although they don't spell it out, the Spot skill mentions a -5 for those not actively trying to look for something. So that would be a DC of 31 for those who are just walking around on the ground without deliberately looking up.

OK, so from that example, I think I can figure out how Spot is intended to work. You start with the DC 0 for plainly visible creatures. You add in the size modifier from the Hide skill. Then you add in the distance modifiers. Then you add other goodies such as cover, if they are actively hiding, etc. That confers a DC.

I think that's how it's intended to work. That would appear to be RAW.

Now there is the issue of how stupid it is. This means common people cannot see a six story building (a colossal sized creature) a block away, even if they stare until their eyes water. In addition, it completely voids the "max spot distance" text that is listed with each terrain type. The max spot distances are far more sane, but impossible to reach using the game mechanics as-is. I think I agree with billd91 -- even not knowing how 3.0 D&D worked, I can say that 3.5 D&D has a terrible system for Spot.

 

[neth123]

I'm not sure if I'm supposed to fork this forked thread, but I have a related question. Warlock's blast can fire out to 250' with Eldritch Spear, with no range increment. Are there no penalties at all for targeting something almost a football field away?

 

[Herzog]

Taking into account they specifically mention:

Unless the creatures on the ground are specifically scanning the sky for the giant eagle <snip>

(emphasis mine)
The DC is actually 5 points off (based on your calculation)

The only conclusion I can draw from that is that the base DC for spotting a medium creature at point blank range should be -5. (to compensate for the -5 on spot checks when not actively looking)

Could you provide the math for your six-story building example?
(I could do it myself, but I'm lazy )

Your conclusion, of course, is correct. The spot rules don't make sense when applied to very close or extreme ranges. But then, the rules are an abstraction anyway....

 

[aboyd]

OK, the 6 story example. City blocks range from about 250' to 900' depending upon the city. I used 400 as a typical number. At 400, you are at -40 to Spot. In other words, your DC to view something 400' away is 40. A commoner with no (or few) points in Spot will not see that something even if they take 20. So I thought, let's see if making the object to spot really huge helps. So a colossal creature is about 65' tall and provides a +16 to the Spot check (cause he's just so big and obvious). That means a commoner would roll a 20, get +16 to Spot this gigantic thing, have a total of 36, and it still wouldn't be enough to Spot. A 65 foot tall monster 400 feet away -- can't see it, even with perfect rolls. Even with a few levels, most classes probably still wouldn't be able to see it.

This makes no sense to me.

 

[irdeggman]

You don't always have to use the spot skill. It is only used if the DM determines it is necessary - unless trying to find something that is hidden.

 

[billd91]

The 3.0 DMG had a base DC of 20 (or 25+hide modifiers if the opponent was deliberately trying to use terrain to hide) for a special Spot check. The initial distance depended on the type of terrain and ranged from an average of 25 ft for fog/smoke to 420 ft for grasslands with little cover. Modifiers applied for the size of the creatures involved, their number, and light conditions. The -1 for each 10' of distance was NOT included into this special Spot check.

If neither group spotted the other and continued to close the distance, spotting became automatic at half the distance rolled unless one or the other group is deliberately using the terrain to hide, in which case the standard spot/hide rules took effect.