[forked thread] What constitutes an edition war?

@Redbadge :

First, I want to apologize for using the word "silly". I'm glad you didn't take offense, and I want to clarify that I didn't mean YOU are silly...I was saying the position you are supporting is silly...but even then that's a loaded word.

Untenable might be a better word.

I think, if we were to put a poll up (which I don't want to do because it would be flamebait for sure), you would find that even ardent supporters and huge fans of 4e would not claim that it was "best". Most people on these boards are able to see positives and negatives about all editions of D&D and of various systems.

Here's what the poll would look like:
1. I play an edition that isn't 4e and it's clear that 4e is objectively the "best" edition.
2. I play an edition that isn't 4e and I don't believe 4e is objectively the "best" edition.

3. I play 4e and it's clear that 4e is objectively the "best" edition.
4. I play 4e and I don't believe 4e is objectively the "best" edition.


I suspect you wouldn't be surprised by the ratio of answers to 1. and 2. I suspect you WOULD be surprised by the answers to 3. and 4. especially if we were to make it a public poll (where people's account names are tied to their answer).

I believe that we'd see more than 90% of the answers to 3 and 4 be #4...that even people who play 4e don't consider it objectively "best".
I am going to jump in here and quibble about the best, is the best the best edition of D&D or the best rpg evar?
If the former then as a 4e fan I would be inclined to go along with "best edition of D&D so far", but I would not agree with "best rpg evar". Mostly because diferent rpg rules give rise to different styles of game. I like tea but occasionally I like coffee.
 

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Are you being pendantic... I really can't tell. If market research tells WotC... classes are what 99.8% of players want in D&D, you best believe they are going to set down a design paradigm of classes in D&D. Now what Mike Mearls does within that paradigm is up to him... but telling a developer to "Just do whatever you want..." especially with an established property in a creativity-based business is a quick way to failure... profit wise (which is what we have been discussing)

New Coke.

D&D 3e.

New Coke was the product of market research. 3e was the product of "ivory tower design." Marketing research is simply no substitute for design.

I also have not made any argument towards the correctness or not of any particular design or development paradigm... that again has nothing to do with the argument that he is given restrictions, paradigms and tenets he must adhere to in his development... and thus cannot just decide to do whatever he wants with D&D development.

You are of course correct, but I can't detect any serious claim by anyone stating otherwise, so I'm having trouble telling what you're trying to tell me here. I've already agreed MM has bosses who tell him what to do.
 

I am going to jump in here and quibble about the best, is the best the best edition of D&D or the best rpg evar?
If the former then as a 4e fan I would be inclined to go along with "best edition of D&D so far", but I would not agree with "best rpg evar". Mostly because diferent rpg rules give rise to different styles of game. I like tea but occasionally I like coffee.

Just to clarify, I should probably have also emphasized the word "objectively".

Would you make the claim "4e is objectively the best edition of Dungeons and Dragons"?
 

New Coke.

D&D 3e.

New Coke was the product of market research. 3e was the product of "ivory tower design." Marketing research is simply no substitute for design.



You are of course correct, but I can't detect any serious claim by anyone stating otherwise, so I'm having trouble telling what you're trying to tell me here. I've already agreed MM has bosses who tell him what to do.

Dude, I'm trying to figure out why you quoted me... I wasn't making any value judgements at all... I was responding to an argument that was stated earlier that because Mearls likes something he has carte blanche to develop D&D around that particular like... that's just not true. That was my point.

EDIT: Also, I don't think one example of market research failure is conclusive as far as whether it is or isn't the best approach to designing and developing a creative endeavor to make money. I could pull out plenty of examples where marketing research has positively influenced a product and where free reign has hampered or caused a product to fail. Just saying.
 
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Just to clarify, I should probably have also emphasized the word "objectively".

Would you make the claim "4e is objectively the best edition of Dungeons and Dragons"?
No, I do not believe that the sentence has meaning. There is no Platonic Ideal D&D to which all D&D editions aspire to. As far as I know there is no concensus as to what D&D is, never mind what best migh mean.

Hmm...

On further reflection I think that only way that an rpg could be said to be objectively the best would be if no-one who had experience of playing disageed with the premise.
 

No, I do not believe that the sentence has meaning. There is no Platonic Ideal D&D to which all D&D editions aspire to. As far as I know there is no concensus as to what D&D is, never mind what best migh mean.

Hmm...

On further reflection I think that only way that an rpg could be said to be objectively the best would be if no-one who had experience of playing disageed with the premise.

You are confusing universally with objectively. To determine if something is objectively the best, you simply define some criteria, and determine which choice best meets those criteria. The answer may not be just one thing, but if there are diverse choices, it probably won't be all of them.
 

Exactly Ardoughter.

EDIT:
Universally best would be if everyone liked the same game the best and no one disagreed, but it would still not be objectively true.

Objectively best would be if you set up criteria and it met those criteria better than any other game...but it wouldn't be the "best game" it would be the "best game according to these strict criteria".
 

You are confusing universally with objectively. To determine if something is objectively the best, you simply define some criteria, and determine which choice best meets those criteria. The answer may not be just one thing, but if there are diverse choices, it probably won't be all of them.
May be, but what would the criteria for "the best edition of D&D" be? and could we get a concensus for those criteria. I suspect not.
 

You were posting this as I wrote my last post. You clarify a bit here.

I'd addend your statement to: "if you had my perspective, and my preferences in gaming, you'd agree with me."

That would be a statement I could agree with.

Well just to clarify my preferences: I prefer story and intrigue above dungeon delves. I do not like overt "gamism" and prefer that it either be absent or transparent. I prefer social and skill-based sessions much more than combat. The "powers" formatting and presentation is unfortunate for many, including me, but that's okay because we just imagine them as quicker and easier to cast rituals and martial practices, which we use profusely. I do not prefer miniatures or tabletop combat, so we rarely use that, but we have with particular set pieces. I am a roleplayer and storyteller first and foremost, but I do dabble in power-gaming and optimization because I like to test and explore the system. I write 30 page backstories for my characters, as do some of my players. When I DM, which is most of the time, I draw up elaborate plots and talk in funny voices. At the table, we spend most of the time planning, plotting, and roleplaying, and our combats are fast, colorful, and elaborate. Our games are realistic and simulate a fantasy setting really well, because that is what we prefer, but we could go in any other direction should we choose. I liked the earliest editions of D&D, loved 3e/3.5, and continue to be intrigued by Pathfinder (which I find to be based on 3.5, but inspired by 4e design). But 4e is mine.
 

Thinking in this way "this game is clearly best" is I think one of the attitudes behind edition warring. It doesn't leave room for "that is also good, maybe AS good".
And yet, your alternative leaves no way to ever improve anything, and denies the fact that not all designs- or assesments of designs- are of equal merit.

This is not just a matter of opinon. Some people might think that game design is just a thing anyone can do, but it's actually very challenging, and can fail of suceed to varying degrees.

It doesn't matter how many rationalisations you want to make, the previous versions of D&D are just not as well designed as 4e.

4e still has a lot of problems, things that don't work well- 4e fans know this, and it's the fact that the actual problems are so different from the made-up hater problems that make this distinction clear.

In some ways, the fact that 4e is so good is a problem itself- Fred Hicks, a designer of some renown, commented on this during the post-mortem of his 4e venture. Designing for 4e is hard, because it's a very good, and hence very demanding system.

It's well balanced, it creates solid outcomes, so the kind of half-assed design done in a lot of games (including 3e) just doesns't cut it, and sticks out like a sore thumb. I'll refrain from naming a few gsl products that show this, including one that got a lot of flack on rpgnet for not doing the kind of dilligence that 4e fans were used to.

Oh and please note, as should be obvious, i'm not saying anything about other rpgs. But when we talk about D&D, about fantasy roleplaying? Saying that the various editions are equal in merit is about as legit as saying rifts is as well designed as savage worlds.

It's not suprising seeing 4e bashers insisting that game design is some kind of subjective art with no rational grounding. You are after all, not presenting rational arguments when you describe the 'videogamification' or 'devancification' of 4e.

I've seen the kind of designs that are coming out of the 'old school renaisance', and i've seen what pathfinder tweaked in it's fan-pandering copy paste of 3e. Not to mention 'I want my (absurdly overpowered) magic back', on this very website.
Enthusiastic? Maybe.
Original? Hardly.
Well designed?

Effective, positive design leading to people having more fun? No, not at all. The same god-damned terrible fighter that 3e had should never have made it's way into pathfinder, and when they let it in to appease the fans, they failed miserably by any standards of legitimate design.

I don't care if people are too narrow minded and dogmatic to realise that.
I am not going to bow and nod to some smug dm or fan who thinks it's ok for one of their friends at the table, or anyone at any table, to have a dull, boring time because they fell into one of the gaping pit-traps in 3e design.

And i'm not very impressed with mike mearls for feeding that anti-fun delusion by chortling along in his colum, about his useless garbage od&d thief that he had to make his own fun with because the system he paid money for wasn't doing it's job, by adding to his enjoyment of the game instead of subtracting from it.

In reality, design is a real, credible disipline, and it leads to better games, wich people have more fun with. That's a principle worth defending, and that makes me an edition warrior, then so be it.
 

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